Description
In this captivating video, join Jeff and Caleb as they dive deep into the fascinating world of concrete sealers. While their original plan was to explore mix designs, the conversation takes an unexpected turn as they uncover the hidden gems of sealers that can truly transform your concrete projects.
Discover the secrets behind choosing the right sealer for different applications, whether it’s countertops, furniture, or even artistic creations. Jeff and Caleb share their wealth of knowledge, discussing various types of sealers, their unique properties, and the impact they have on the durability and aesthetics of concrete.
From understanding the importance of proper surface preparation to demystifying the myths surrounding sealers, this episode will equip you with the insights you need to make informed decisions and achieve outstanding results.
Tune in to “Seal the Deal” and unleash the power of concrete sealers in your next project. Get ready to seal the deal with confidence and take your craftsmanship to new heights.
Transcript
Caleb Lawson:
I’m not gonna do, I’m gonna add the intro afterwards because it’s totally pointless to play it when everybody knows what they’re tuning into. So welcome
Jeff Girard:
Sure.
Caleb Lawson:
everybody
Jeff Girard:
Yeah. Hey
Caleb Lawson:
to
Jeff Girard:
there.
Caleb Lawson:
the podcast. Jeff and I have been, you know, kind of talking already a little bit. But
Jeff Girard:
We gotta prime the pump, so to speak.
Caleb Lawson:
what… Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
hahaha
Caleb Lawson:
As you can see, if you’re watching and not listening later…
Jeff Girard:
Caleb got in trouble and he knows you in the club.
Caleb Lawson:
Oh yeah, I’m in the docket now. I did, I got in a little bit of… We’re not gonna call it trouble, but I was in the shop. I’ve been in the shop recording, obviously, these things. Hopefully you can hear me well, I’m not using my regular mic. I’m using the microphone on my phone.
Jeff Girard:
You sound good.
Caleb Lawson:
Fine, good. But I was thinking this morning, I was like… that my guys can’t do any work in my shop if I’m also in there trying to record a podcast and the dogs barking and all this, which the dog doesn’t bother me, but, um, so I thought, okay, I’m going to try recording it from home. But also it’s summer and my two six-year-old boys are very much home.
Jeff Girard:
Ha ha ha!
Caleb Lawson:
Uh, and, uh, they’re weirdly not awake yet, which is kind of unusual for eight o’clock on a Wednesday. Um, But I thought, okay, where am I gonna record this? I thought the garage. Garage is a great idea. Couldn’t find a good outlet. And also it was cold in there because the garage I chose, this is a weird thing, but we have two garages. One’s in the basement, one’s upstairs.
Jeff Girard:
Can I have one?
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, yeah, I’ll just move one to your house. And… The basement garage is air conditioned, which is a new one for me. But it gets very cold because the thermostat is upstairs.
Jeff Girard:
Yeah, yeah, and cold air sinks.
Caleb Lawson:
So yeah. And well, not only that, the thermostat’s upstairs and so the AC runs for a while because all the windows are also upstairs. And then it gets really cold in the basement. On top of that, it’s a basement, which is cold anyway. Long story short, there’s this lovely little room. I am directly beneath the hot tub. And this is like the room where all of the Christmas decor was stored when my in-laws lived here, for those
Jeff Girard:
This
Caleb Lawson:
of you
Jeff Girard:
is going
Caleb Lawson:
that don’t
Jeff Girard:
to become
Caleb Lawson:
know.
Jeff Girard:
the new studio.
Caleb Lawson:
I think it’s going to become the new studio slash whiskey room. But my wife and I bought her a beer. parents house and we’re very slowly remodeling it. So I’m in this empty but very nicely quiet room where the water heater lives, the hot tubs above me, you’re in a shelf, it’s great you know.
Jeff Girard:
It’s great, it works,
Caleb Lawson:
So
Jeff Girard:
right? Ha ha ha!
Caleb Lawson:
yeah so I mean in the remodel world I’ve been learning how to dry drywall mud. I mean, I can hang drywall, you can screw a sheet to the wall, but we’re, we have like an absolute just ton of 1991 wallpaper in the house.
Jeff Girard:
Apparently there’s a professional trick of when you have a drywall mud in a bucket, you squirt some dish soap in it and add some water and it makes it creamier. I’ve never done it. It’s been a long time since I had to do drywall. But
Caleb Lawson:
might
Jeff Girard:
yeah,
Caleb Lawson:
have to do.
Jeff Girard:
that’s a… I saw, I don’t know if it was a TikTok or a YouTube where it’s like you can, if you bucket and not doing anything to it, you know they don’t know what they’re doing. So
Caleb Lawson:
Oh, well
Jeff Girard:
there
Caleb Lawson:
then
Jeff Girard:
you go.
Caleb Lawson:
everybody would know
Jeff Girard:
Right.
Caleb Lawson:
I don’t know what I’m doing.
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
I mean, I did put it into one of those tray things,
Jeff Girard:
Right, right.
Caleb Lawson:
and I mixed
Jeff Girard:
Well,
Caleb Lawson:
it around first.
Jeff Girard:
I thought you were supposed to put in a hopper gun.
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
And spray it all over everywhere.
Caleb Lawson:
But, yeah, what’s going on in your world? So, yeah, I’m in a garage basement closet, you know. You’re in your office, per usual.
Jeff Girard:
I’m getting ready for another round of testing coming up. Hopefully next week I’ll start looking at zooming in and finalizing
Caleb Lawson:
I’m really impressed by the way at the organization in there because…
Jeff Girard:
Yeah, yeah. Well,
Caleb Lawson:
Well, well done.
Jeff Girard:
it’s been a challenge, but you know how it is, like I said, doing spring cleaning, organizing things, and just getting rid of clutter and stuff like that, it’s refreshing. Years and years ago, let’s see, it was 13 years ago when I moved out of one of my shops, just… getting rid of all the crap that had accumulated over the years. Yeah, dumpsters
Caleb Lawson:
Oh, yes, sir.
Jeff Girard:
full of stuff.
Caleb Lawson:
Oh listen, I mean, you know…
Jeff Girard:
old molds
Caleb Lawson:
Can you do our…
Jeff Girard:
and pieces of concrete there you’re like well I’ll do something with it or you know tools that didn’t really work but maybe I’ll get around to fixing them or cleaning them yeah no.
Caleb Lawson:
You know, I mean, we did a whole episode on cleaning 8-10 weeks ago, but it’s worth repeating. You know, there were a few things that you didn’t need anymore that you gave me, and you know, there were a couple of cabinets, and obviously, you know, there were some old molds as well. And in… trying to find space in my shop, which you don’t think about it because I set my shop up just under three years ago, which is not that long in the grand scheme of things, and I filled up a dumpster and a half getting my shop cleaned out after three years. That was after having done a big spring cleaning when I moved from Orlando, which was a bigger shop. So I intentionally chose a much smaller shop. Which now… I definitely don’t credit, but there are some things that I’ve got kind of in the pipeline that are going to make me want more space, so we’ll see where that goes.
Jeff Girard:
That’s always, you know, one of those challenges and when we, you know, I’ve been helping people get into this business for hmm, it’ll push in 20 years, right, 20 years next year. And when you think about your shop, right, it’s the single most expensive and valuable tool and asset that you have.
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
It is the place that… you do your craft. It is the place where your money comes from. And having something that is too small or too big is just as detrimental as having something that kind of only sort of works.
Caleb Lawson:
Well, and I had my, so I’ve had, this is my third shop. My first shop was pretty open. It was honestly pretty similar in shape and scope and size to what I have now with the exception of it had two big bay doors and no show space, so it was one big open cube. The downside was it was one of those metal buildings. It was like a metal warehouse. in Orlando, Florida with no tree covering at all. So
Jeff Girard:
Hot.
Caleb Lawson:
it was a toaster. I think you came there a couple of times,
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
once or twice anyway, and I mean in the summer it was like 109 in
Jeff Girard:
It’s
Caleb Lawson:
there.
Jeff Girard:
hot, yeah, that’s brutal.
Caleb Lawson:
And you know, I had like one back door. So there’s really there was no good way to get flow. I mean you just had to blow air in from the outside. You couldn’t like make it circulate because… Anyway, and then the second shop was just I mean it was much bigger but it was dreadful in the scope of like making things ergonomic like it was it was long it had a bunch
Jeff Girard:
It was really an
Caleb Lawson:
it
Jeff Girard:
awkward shape.
Caleb Lawson:
was really weird it was a big space but then it had like a third of it had a floor over it that was not part of my space so that was really low ceilings and then like
Jeff Girard:
You have those columns
Caleb Lawson:
skinny
Jeff Girard:
down
Caleb Lawson:
spaces
Jeff Girard:
the middle.
Caleb Lawson:
a ton of columns and then it had this back section that was also really low ceilings and I couldn’t get a forklift through the back door and the pit was back there so I couldn’t drive the forklift over it anyway. It was just, it was, so I mean honestly I had 4200 square feet and I think I could use half of it.
Jeff Girard:
Yeah. So if I had to, if I had to say one thing, and I don’t want to like get off into shop design or anything like that, um, which is a topic of a future podcast, I’m
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
sure.
Caleb Lawson:
for sure.
Jeff Girard:
But, um, if I had to say there’s one thing or two things, two things that are critically important and I’ve been in a lot of people’s shops from brand new shops that have been, that I helped set up to shops that have been running for, you know, 15, 20 years.
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
is number one, good organization. So I get, you know, if you, for all my students who have been to my shop for class, my toolboxes, you know, the rolling toolboxes that mechanics use, I have several of those. Every drawer is labeled. So if you wanna know where the knives are,
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, and
Jeff Girard:
it’s
Caleb Lawson:
I did
Jeff Girard:
in the
Caleb Lawson:
that.
Jeff Girard:
drawer
Caleb Lawson:
Go to
Jeff Girard:
labeled
Caleb Lawson:
the knife
Jeff Girard:
knives.
Caleb Lawson:
store.
Jeff Girard:
Where are the measuring tapes? They’re in the drawer labeled measuring tapes and it’s written in paint pen on it. So
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
you
Caleb Lawson:
I
Jeff Girard:
can
Caleb Lawson:
took
Jeff Girard:
see
Caleb Lawson:
that
Jeff Girard:
it from
Caleb Lawson:
advice
Jeff Girard:
across the room.
Caleb Lawson:
a couple years ago and it was really helpful.
Jeff Girard:
And, you know, knowing where things go, where things are, and where things should be, makes a huge difference in terms of the amount of time you save just wandering around looking for something. And second is keeping things clean.
Caleb Lawson:
Uh huh.
Jeff Girard:
So like, like in your old shop, the last shop you moved out of in Orlando, the shop you inherited,
Caleb Lawson:
and the
Jeff Girard:
the
Caleb Lawson:
floor
Jeff Girard:
thing
Caleb Lawson:
was
Jeff Girard:
that
Caleb Lawson:
horrible.
Jeff Girard:
I really lamented was the fact that your floor was so bumpy and so uneven that it was almost a tripping hazard. And that was not because you were messy. It
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
was because.
Caleb Lawson:
That was a cultured
Jeff Girard:
The
Caleb Lawson:
marble shot before me and it was,
Jeff Girard:
culture,
Caleb Lawson:
I mean, oof.
Jeff Girard:
yeah, and you would have had a like jackhammer the floor.
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
And I’ve
Caleb Lawson:
I’m
Jeff Girard:
been
Caleb Lawson:
bringing
Jeff Girard:
in shops.
Caleb Lawson:
up an inch.
Jeff Girard:
I was in a shop, this was maybe seven, eight years ago in Reno, Nevada, and it was a nice. Fairly new steel building, had a concrete floor, kind of really nice conditions. And nobody kept anything clean. And there were just piles of concrete, they’d scrape off the forms and it would just fall on the floor. And there’d be lumps of concrete everywhere. And you had to watch where you were going because otherwise you’d trip.
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
And it’s like, how, that’s just careless. That’s…
Caleb Lawson:
Well, you know, and one thing on the floor topic, you know, I didn’t do this in my shot. I pressure wash a lot and I scrape the floor a lot and, you know, that’s worked for me. One thing I will say that Martin Haddock Duckett, he changed his name on Facebook recently. But anyway, he is moving into a new space and he did epoxy on the floor, like a, you know, full on white or… you know, two part kind of primed and then two part epoxy on the floor for that exact reason and I was like that is smart. I think he’s doing his new shop really the right, he’s taking a lot of care. And then you know you’ve got folks like Patrick Galladay who coincidentally is I think going to restart his podcast,
Jeff Girard:
Mm-hmm.
Caleb Lawson:
which I’m excited about, I enjoyed that. So It was funny, I think he, what did he post on all the groups? He’s like, let me know if you want me to restart it. You know, and, and my response was as one of the two options out there, I think you should go for it.
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
Um, you know, cause I really enjoyed, I think the more voices, the better. And I really liked, uh, I liked his perspective on it. Um, and you know, the guests he had on and the production value, I think he really took the time to. produce the podcast, which is great. So I hope that comes back.
Jeff Girard:
I can only imagine how much work that takes.
Caleb Lawson:
Oh
Jeff Girard:
I mean,
Caleb Lawson:
yeah.
Jeff Girard:
I know how much work it takes to do this, and hey, we’re just kind of winging it, right? Ha
Caleb Lawson:
And this
Jeff Girard:
ha
Caleb Lawson:
is fairly primitive. I
Jeff Girard:
ha.
Caleb Lawson:
mean, the platform is better and the audio is better. And we’ve kind of upgraded a little bit from our previous setup. And I can do things like this. uh… but uh… here
Jeff Girard:
We spare no expense here. Shades of
Caleb Lawson:
Uh,
Jeff Girard:
Jurassic
Caleb Lawson:
what?
Jeff Girard:
Park.
Caleb Lawson:
Oh my gosh, do I have a- No. Uh, what, uh, what else is going on in the concrete world that you’ve been hearing about?
Jeff Girard:
Oh, so, you know, we, as a lot of people know, you know, CCI is primarily a, and it has always been a, an informational educational company, right? So we’re the first truly technically based and we still are truly the only technically based teaching school. You know, I have a engineering background, so strong legitimate technical foundations. You know, it’s not just based on, Hey, this is what I learned how to do over the years and I’m sharing my mistakes and all that I’m channeling engineering and all that we’ve already talked about that. So we also have over the years through a need, uh, develop products. So the first, first product that they’ll develop with going on what, five, six years now,
Caleb Lawson:
I
Jeff Girard:
was
Caleb Lawson:
think
Jeff Girard:
Omega.
Caleb Lawson:
it’s seven. I think I’ve been using it for seven years.
Jeff Girard:
Seven years, okay, so it’s been a while. It’s easy to lose track of time, right?
Caleb Lawson:
26.
Jeff Girard:
Is our Omega concrete countertop sealer, which is a topical sealer, because topical sealers are consistent and proven to work. They don’t depend on whimsical array of concrete chemistries and… days of the week or how you hold your feet, all that to maybe work. They always work because the chemistry is fixed. And then I developed Ovation, which is a, it’s positioned as a DIY level sealer, but I mean you have it in your own kitchen, right, and you’ve
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, you know, I do. It’s funny. I, um… I did it as an experiment, because I’m like, okay, surely. You know, I mean, I think initially when you told me about it, I thought it was an acrylic, and it’s not. It’s,
Jeff Girard:
It’s not.
Caleb Lawson:
uh…
Jeff Girard:
It’s a hybrid
Caleb Lawson:
it’s…
Jeff Girard:
urethane.
Caleb Lawson:
it’s urethane. But, um… it is as easy to apply as an acrylic, which I find very fun. Uh, it just… I mean, you can’t screw it up. Um, it… it, like, you spray it… so… If you use Omega… Which you should, if you’re using any topical, and I am not gonna down topicals, because I’ve got, you know, I’ve used every friggin’ sealer in the sealer sphere, I think at this point, or close to it. And this is the best one I’ve found. No sealer is perfect. We’re never gonna tell you that every sealer is perfect, but I really, really like Omega. That said, when you introduced Ovation, you sent me a quart or whatever, and I was like, well, I’m doing my kitchen, and let’s just see how this goes.
Jeff Girard:
Sure, why not.
Caleb Lawson:
uh… and you know, because I mean… my patient wife has dealt with all of my sealer changes over the years because we’ve pretty much always had concrete in our kitchen. And you know, when Omega first came out, I had just done my kitchen at home in Orlando with I don’t remember if it was 327 or RPS. RPS was Buddy Road Sealer. Reactive something or other. And I was less than thrilled, and I hate to say that, because, you know, but it,
Jeff Girard:
That’s why you try things on yourself.
Caleb Lawson:
yeah. You know, we had, I mean, we’re really good to our stuff. Like, you know, I have a concrete sink in my kitchen, which I don’t usually do for clients, because they’re really ware-prone, and, you know, I mean, we take care of our stuff. Somebody came into my kitchen. two days ago and the countertops in there are two years old. And I mean, at this point,
Jeff Girard:
And what color are they?
Caleb Lawson:
oh, they’re white.
Jeff Girard:
Yeah, white.
Caleb Lawson:
It’s white marble, marbled. And I mean, sink looks fine. Now we bleach it because that’s how you keep a concrete sink clean. But there’s like, there’s maintenance involved, right? Um, now for bathrooms and stuff, that’s a totally different story. Uh, I happily install bathroom and outdoor kitchen sinks all the time. Love them. Uh, we’ll have them in every room of my house, but I think a kitchen sink ought to be stainless or, you know, cast
Jeff Girard:
something
Caleb Lawson:
iron or something
Jeff Girard:
else here.
Caleb Lawson:
generally
Jeff Girard:
I agree.
Caleb Lawson:
speaking. And it should not be integrated. Mine’s integrated. So it’s like, I do the things you shouldn’t do. Right. Um, but all of that to say, I am. Beyond. Impressed because what I expected was what was that acrylic sealer that you were using as a Cheap quick sealer when I took class in 13 that was VV And we
Jeff Girard:
Well,
Caleb Lawson:
sealed
Jeff Girard:
TK6,
Caleb Lawson:
that
Jeff Girard:
yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
Yeah,
Caleb Lawson:
yeah
Jeff Girard:
I don’t think anybody uses that anymore.
Caleb Lawson:
So we were using you were using tk6 it was an easy to apply HVLP
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
kind of thing And that’s why I like expected in terms of performance out of this sealer And so, you know, you set the expectations really low, honestly, which and when I first got it, I did some testing on it and then this was like a real world test. But when I did the testing on it, I was blown away because I took
Jeff Girard:
Testing on ovation?
Caleb Lawson:
both Omega and Ovation. I took
Jeff Girard:
OK.
Caleb Lawson:
a four foot by two foot like panel of concrete that I had. It was like a cutoff or something from a panel. I made a large panel and. made it too big intentionally, cut it down, I had this thing, you know, leftover. And I sealed half of it with ovation, half of it with omega, and on the omega half I did one pri- I don’t remember it, I have pictures of it somewhere, but it was like one prime two finish coats, two prime three finish coats, two prime four finish coats, right? And the two prime four finish coats is what I do as a standard now, and then,
Jeff Girard:
That’s what we recommend, yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
yeah, and then I did uh Which coincidentally three prime is really nice actually. I know it’s more sealer but to me it makes a difference. But anyway. Then I did Ovation I think two, three and four coats.
Jeff Girard:
Mm-hmm.
Caleb Lawson:
Just as is, you just put it in a spray bottle, dilute it two parts, Ovation one part water, Windex
Jeff Girard:
Super
Caleb Lawson:
bottles
Jeff Girard:
fast, super easy.
Caleb Lawson:
my favorite but you spray it and you back roll it and you’re done. And I have not found a way to screw it up yet. Like you can’t make it look bad. And I did it and I waited for it to cure a full week Both and then I did like stain testing drew the grid out and did all the different things for all the different hours And all this stuff as you would expect mustard left a stain And you know, whatever Omega easy to clean up. No big deal the mustard after 24 hours left to stay and got it out with bleach. No problem But there were some stains I couldn’t get out of ovation. Mustard was one of them. And anyway, what was the weirdest thing was I cleaned it. And then I was done with my testing. I’d figured out what happened. You know, I was happy with the results for bathrooms and bird baths like you’ve got one in your backyard. And so, you know, my general thought was, okay, I’m going to use ovation for things that don’t need kitchen protection.
Jeff Girard:
Right. And that’s generally the kind of recommendations we have for professionals, right? For a homeowner doing it themselves, sure, it’s
Caleb Lawson:
put
Jeff Girard:
going
Caleb Lawson:
an
Jeff Girard:
to be
Caleb Lawson:
extra
Jeff Girard:
great.
Caleb Lawson:
couple codes on it and
Jeff Girard:
There
Caleb Lawson:
you’ll
Jeff Girard:
are
Caleb Lawson:
be
Jeff Girard:
actually
Caleb Lawson:
fine.
Jeff Girard:
a couple coats. But for, you know, you’re doing a job for somebody who doesn’t know what they’re getting, it’s safer to have something of a higher level of protection because you have to kind of think for them. Whereas a homeowner is making that choice and they’re more aware.
Caleb Lawson:
That said, two weeks later, all the stains were gone.
Jeff Girard:
Wow.
Caleb Lawson:
And I don’t know why. This is very anecdotal and I’m not sure what happened because I, you
Jeff Girard:
I’m
Caleb Lawson:
know.
Jeff Girard:
going to use some language that I was told by somebody else a long time ago. And I think this is all, you know, it’s, it’s smoke and mirrors kind of talk. It’s, it’s the stain was pushed out. Yeah,
Caleb Lawson:
By what?
Jeff Girard:
I don’t know, magic.
Caleb Lawson:
So it’s the magic sealer that
Jeff Girard:
magic
Caleb Lawson:
unstains
Jeff Girard:
seal.
Caleb Lawson:
itself. So all of that to say, super thrilled with Ovation. I’ve got it in my kitchen. And actually at the time, I misunderstood the instructions. So I did it two parts water to one part Ovation.
Jeff Girard:
That’s probably why, yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
And… That’s what I did in my kitchen and now I did like seven coats because I was like alright kitchen, but Seven coats of the wrong dilution, so I’ve really only got three and a half coats on there in theory
Jeff Girard:
And something that I don’t want to get it again. This is another topic we can really deep dive in another Podcast is both of my sealers. So Omega and Ovation. They’re both urethane based Omega is a two-part and Ovation is a single part and Both use water as a dilutant But neither depend on the water for curing The water
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
is there just to make it easy to apply and easy to get a very good finish.
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, and so the humidity doesn’t matter.
Jeff Girard:
In fact, drying is an important aspect of this
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
and
Caleb Lawson:
throw fans
Jeff Girard:
that’s
Caleb Lawson:
on it.
Jeff Girard:
why we apply it so thin and that’s why you can apply another coat very, very quickly, whereas in a lot of other sealers you have
Caleb Lawson:
You gotta
Jeff Girard:
to
Caleb Lawson:
wait.
Jeff Girard:
wait a long time. Moisture is you want the moisture to go away. So the faster it goes away the faster you can keep going in That’s all I’m gonna
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
say on this
Caleb Lawson:
But
Jeff Girard:
but
Caleb Lawson:
yeah, so and you know, we’re two years into these countertops. You know, we had a party, Lauren got some barbecue for my birthday and I had a bunch of guys over for a poker night last year. And one of the sauces was a mustard sauce and it’s, you know, leaked out of a container and it sat under the container for several hours. And there was a there was a spot, right? And after everybody left, I cleaned it and threw a paper towel with some bleach on it, went to bed, stained on it. And that’s the only time it’s really stained. And it was, you know, it’s caught in the sealer. That’s what people, I think, are confused by. It’s like, oh, it’s stained! I’m like, yeah, in the sealer! It protected the concrete, which is its job, bleach it out, and you’re good.
Jeff Girard:
So, I mean, that’s the purpose of a sealer, no matter what it is. It’s to protect the concrete. And because if a stain gets in the concrete, that game over, right?
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, you gotta hone it or it
Jeff Girard:
You got
Caleb Lawson:
you
Jeff Girard:
to
Caleb Lawson:
know
Jeff Girard:
hone
Caleb Lawson:
if you
Jeff Girard:
it or you got to whatever, right? It’s really, really hard to get out. Here is an interesting anecdotal story that’s very current and right on topic. I was talking to Dylan Myers earlier this week.
Caleb Lawson:
If you don’t follow Dylan, go follow him. Dylan
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
underscore Myers underscore design on Instagram.
Jeff Girard:
crazy guy, amazing, amazing work.
Caleb Lawson:
We love him.
Jeff Girard:
So
Caleb Lawson:
He’s
Jeff Girard:
he had,
Caleb Lawson:
a good friend and super talented artisan.
Jeff Girard:
we were talking about how he had been doing this, he does a lot of big commercial work in Baltimore, near Baltimore and near Washington DC. And he had been doing a lot of work for this one company and he hadn’t really heard from him in a while. And it’s like kind of following up on why
Caleb Lawson:
heard
Jeff Girard:
things
Caleb Lawson:
this
Jeff Girard:
had
Caleb Lawson:
story.
Jeff Girard:
kind of, why the work. work had dried up even though they were very busy and long story short it turns out that He had done like a break room kitchen for one of their places.
Caleb Lawson:
What the architects, yeah.
Jeff Girard:
One of the architects, yeah. The reason why they weren’t calling him back was they thought that the concrete was staining and that was the reason why they weren’t calling him back because they were not happy with the performance of the concrete. So he went out there and looked at it and it turns out they were just doing a really bad job of cleaning
Caleb Lawson:
weren’t
Jeff Girard:
it.
Caleb Lawson:
cleaning it.
Jeff Girard:
They
Caleb Lawson:
So
Jeff Girard:
weren’t
Caleb Lawson:
he
Jeff Girard:
cleaning
Caleb Lawson:
cleaned
Jeff Girard:
it.
Caleb Lawson:
it with what a Scotch-Brite and some simple green and it was brand new.
Jeff Girard:
Something like that, yeah. And I had a customer once a long, long time ago, and this has nothing to do with staining of the concrete, but we had installed countertops, and in the process of seaming it, you know, cleaning things up, there’s always a little bit of haze and stuff, because if you’re dealing with a fresh caulk joint, you don’t want to be like wiping and washing over that fresh joint. It’s going to just smear it and make it a mess. So there’s going to be a little bit of haze.
Caleb Lawson:
you clean
Jeff Girard:
And,
Caleb Lawson:
up later.
Jeff Girard:
you know, that’s a conversation I had with a homeowner. It’s like, hey, you know, tomorrow you can clean these, but don’t touch these tonight. All you have to do is, you know, take a paper towel and some Windex and, and maybe, maybe if it’s a little bit more tenacious, you get a nonstick, you know, one of those sponges that have the non-skip scrubby pads are usually blue on them.
Caleb Lawson:
Thank
Jeff Girard:
You
Caleb Lawson:
you.
Jeff Girard:
can use a little, you know, Windex or your favorite cleaner and, and just give it a little bit of mild elbow grease on that. stubborn, right? But it’s just something you have to do. And apparently those words went one in one ear and out the other because we got a call like three days later Hey, my countertops are all stained. There’s something wrong with the sealer. Come out and look at it And they never even bothered to try to clean it Like, come on people.
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
Um, so like to me, staining is something permanent and you have to put a lot of work to get, to undo it. And if, if something like a tea stain or say mustard stain, it discolors the surface. Now the thing about
Caleb Lawson:
Thank
Jeff Girard:
the
Caleb Lawson:
you.
Jeff Girard:
yellow mustard that makes it very, um, tough and tenacious is the turmeric in it. And.
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, and I want to interject because, you know, I think there’s a lot of misconception out there of, you know, I’ve seen a lot of this, right? Well, everything’s amazing because my sealer beats water.
Jeff Girard:
So what? Ha ha ha.
Caleb Lawson:
I don’t know that that’s a… put mustard on it, please. Like, put mustard on it and then, you know, because it’s…
Jeff Girard:
put vinegar on something too.
Caleb Lawson:
It’s just not, um… That’s not an adequate stain test.
Jeff Girard:
Yeah…
Caleb Lawson:
It’s just not.
Jeff Girard:
no.
Caleb Lawson:
It’s not an adequate protection test. That is anecdotal, it makes you feel better, but I could put wax on it and it would do the same thing.
Jeff Girard:
Yeah, and a simple test with WAC shows that that’s a very, very small speed bump. It
Caleb Lawson:
I
Jeff Girard:
doesn’t
Caleb Lawson:
mean
Jeff Girard:
stop anything.
Caleb Lawson:
by that logic, right, I could go get some Scotch-Brite, or Scotch- what is that? Scotch-Guard in
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
a can, just spray my concrete and we’d be good.
Jeff Girard:
I’ve tested that, that repellent stuff doesn’t work. Work, by work mean it keeps the concrete from getting damaged or stained from things like acid, because most food has, is acidic, especially things like mustard and tea and wine and pickles and
Caleb Lawson:
lemons.
Jeff Girard:
citrus,
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
acid, right? Acids
Caleb Lawson:
And
Jeff Girard:
are very damaging to concrete. And that’s not a stain, that’s chemical damage. That’s
Caleb Lawson:
Right.
Jeff Girard:
no
Caleb Lawson:
And
Jeff Girard:
different
Caleb Lawson:
so.
Jeff Girard:
than taking a hammer and chisel to your concrete, except you’re
Caleb Lawson:
Right,
Jeff Girard:
doing
Caleb Lawson:
and
Jeff Girard:
it
Caleb Lawson:
so
Jeff Girard:
chemically.
Caleb Lawson:
I think when we say, does it, you know, because we’re trying to define the word work here, we’re saying this sealer and ovation has done this in my kitchen. Omega obviously is a phenomenal protectant. But the mustard discolored the ovation. It did not, however, discolored the concrete. The concrete was protected. The sealer is what I bleached. Not the concrete. The sealer.
Jeff Girard:
Yeah, the sealer kept anything bad from touching the concrete and
Caleb Lawson:
Which is a job. So it’s doing its job.
Jeff Girard:
it’s doing its job. So turmeric is very yellow. If you’ve ever mixed anything, made anything with turmeric, like a curry or whatever, and use like a plastic spatula or spoon or whatever, it stains plastic, right? It stains everything. It stains wood.
Caleb Lawson:
Oh yeah.
Jeff Girard:
It stains plastic. stainless steel and ceramic or glass, which are all basically non-porous.
Caleb Lawson:
But it would stain granite, it would stain
Jeff Girard:
Sure,
Caleb Lawson:
stuff.
Jeff Girard:
it’ll stain granite. It’ll get into the… And the thing is it doesn’t necessarily penetrate very deeply in some sealers like, you know, Omega and Ovation. What’s happened is it gets into the surface and sticks to the surface. So just wiping it with a cloth and a common cleaner. does not release it, doesn’t get rid of it. It’s like trying to clean a pan that’s all greasy and only using water. It doesn’t get rid of it.
Caleb Lawson:
Thanks.
Jeff Girard:
The grease and the oil stuck to the pan. So you need to use something a little more aggressive. Common household bleach, right? So one of the things when I’m developing sealers, I test is how does it stand up to straight bleach? Because that’s a common way of getting rid of stains. Red wine stains, grape juice stains. blueberry stains, mustard stains, tea stains, organic stains. Stains are discoloration. And if you can just use household bleach, put it on a sponge, put it on a paper towel, let it sit there for a few minutes, let it sit there overnight. It’s not gonna hurt the sealer. It’ll get rid of it. So that’s
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
what you’re
Caleb Lawson:
and
Jeff Girard:
seeing. Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
I think too, you know, there’s a lot of, you know, a lot of what we say to people we’re training or advising or whatever is, you know, set the expectation, right? Which absolutely. But that to me only goes so far, right? Because I could set the, I could give them bare concrete and set the expectation. This is going to stain like crazy and we’ll call it a patina. You know, it’s like If I put copper countertops in somebody’s house, which would be really cool actually, it’s going to oxidize. It will be green at
Jeff Girard:
I’ve
Caleb Lawson:
some
Jeff Girard:
had them,
Caleb Lawson:
point.
Jeff Girard:
I made them, yes, I will.
Caleb Lawson:
It will be green. And you just need to understand that and be okay with that and whatever. I personally, as an artisan, am not okay with that for my kitchen countertops. Like, copper, honestly, I actually think I could be cool with the patina. But I don’t know that I would want to live with the… I mean,
Jeff Girard:
than
Caleb Lawson:
it’s like
Jeff Girard:
that.
Caleb Lawson:
having tile countertops, right?
Jeff Girard:
I’ve had
Caleb Lawson:
You don’t
Jeff Girard:
those.
Caleb Lawson:
feel
Jeff Girard:
They’re
Caleb Lawson:
the grout.
Jeff Girard:
terrible.
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, they’re terrible. You don’t feel the grout, and then the grout gets real gross. And you could put a penetrating sealer on it, I suppose, but it would still get real gross. I mean, you think about the penetrating sealers you put in your showers, and they still get really gross.
Jeff Girard:
But yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
And so I personally would not want… I want a protective layer on top of… Now I don’t want it to look like plastic, I don’t want it to look like epoxy, I want it to look and feel like concrete, which is one of the advantages of Omega Innovation is they still look and feel like concrete.
Jeff Girard:
because they’re so thin.
Caleb Lawson:
So I’m a big fan of topical sealers for that reason, it’s like I want the actual protection, I want to be able to say and feel and understand and live with, it’s not going to stain within reason. and I want to be able to tell that to my clients is like look if it does X, Y or Z here’s what you do not you’ve ruined your concrete.
Jeff Girard:
All right.
Caleb Lawson:
So you know set the expectations but I would hate to have to give a client you know something they paid $170 a square foot for and then be like well don’t look at it because it’ll stain
Jeff Girard:
Right.
Caleb Lawson:
you
Jeff Girard:
And
Caleb Lawson:
know or
Jeff Girard:
here’s something else. years many years ago I wrote I wrote an article on this and I think it’s somewhere on the CCI website it was called my sealer epiphany about who takes responsibility for protecting your concrete so there’s kind of like two broad schools of thought the school of thought that we’re in we’re very firmly in is we as manufacturers of this product so we make the concrete we choose the I’m even higher than that because I’m making the sealer to do what I want it to do. But that’s neither here nor there. We’re making
Caleb Lawson:
You saying
Jeff Girard:
a choice.
Caleb Lawson:
you’re holier than thou? I’m
Jeff Girard:
Yeah,
Caleb Lawson:
kidding.
Jeff Girard:
no. I just have another layer of responsibility. How’s that?
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
Let’s
Caleb Lawson:
yeah,
Jeff Girard:
put it that way.
Caleb Lawson:
no,
Jeff Girard:
So
Caleb Lawson:
I know it’s giving you a hard time.
Jeff Girard:
I’m making the concrete. I’m choosing the sealer that I’m gonna be sealing it with. And by doing that, what I’m doing is I’m saying, I’m setting the expectations of what this can do, what
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
it can stand up to, what it will resist. and how it is going to be maintained. And the choice I make is passed on to the customer. And it’s my responsibility to let them know, hey, this is how you take care of it. This is what you have to worry about, or this is what you don’t have to worry about.
Caleb Lawson:
And these are the expectations regardless of what sealer you’re choosing to
Jeff Girard:
Exactly.
Caleb Lawson:
use. We’re not going to browbeat you into, into choosing Omega innovation, but.
Jeff Girard:
as somebody who chooses a high performance coating because there is a vast, vast industry that has very deep roots. Look at the auto industry. How many cars don’t have paint on them? I can only think
Caleb Lawson:
One,
Jeff Girard:
of one.
Caleb Lawson:
DeLorean.
Jeff Girard:
And it doesn’t exist anymore because it was too expensive and it only came in one color. And don’t touch it because it’ll scratch and then it’ll look awful. and you can’t
Caleb Lawson:
and the
Jeff Girard:
do
Caleb Lawson:
rest.
Jeff Girard:
anything about it because it’s super expensive. And oh, by the way, stainless steel can rust. So
Caleb Lawson:
I would still private the Lorian though, if we’re
Jeff Girard:
yeah,
Caleb Lawson:
honest.
Jeff Girard:
yeah. Even though it was a crap, everything underneath the skin wasn’t that great. Like,
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, but they looked really
Jeff Girard:
it
Caleb Lawson:
cool.
Jeff Girard:
looked really cool. Yeah, it looked really cool, right? So, but it’s all flash. All flash and no substance kind of thing.
Caleb Lawson:
I don’t think it can get to 88 miles an hour,
Jeff Girard:
Probably
Caleb Lawson:
but.
Jeff Girard:
not, no. I think in the movie they had to fake it because it couldn’t
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
actually do it. So we as manufacturers choosing high-performance coding are basically saying to our customers, we’re doing all the thinking for you. All you have to do is comply with our expectations and our rules. The flip side is going with the natural feel of concrete. So I’m making my product to appeal to my personal choices and feelings about how I want the concrete to feel. So I want my customers to touch bare concrete or what I pretend to think is bare concrete. And I’m going to be using some sort of penetrating sauce that I smear all over the concrete and hope it actually does something. And common testing shows that 99% of the things that are out there fail
Caleb Lawson:
Maybe
Jeff Girard:
the
Caleb Lawson:
you found the
Jeff Girard:
15
Caleb Lawson:
1%, that’s
Jeff Girard:
minute
Caleb Lawson:
great.
Jeff Girard:
test. So, you know, put, put straight vinegar on it and let’s see what happens. And in 15 minutes or after an hour or after eight hours or after 24 hours. If everybody does that, what’s actually happening? You know, is it actually protecting it? Because that could happen. Right. And that puts, is there anything wrong with doing that? No, it’s not. I mean, you could
Caleb Lawson:
Well,
Jeff Girard:
do
Caleb Lawson:
I
Jeff Girard:
that.
Caleb Lawson:
mean,
Jeff Girard:
You could give
Caleb Lawson:
again,
Jeff Girard:
it, like you
Caleb Lawson:
anecdotally,
Jeff Girard:
said, you could give your customers
Caleb Lawson:
like…
Jeff Girard:
absolutely bare concrete, but now it puts a hundred percent of the responsibility on them, which is not unreasonable. Right. But here’s something that, that I don’t.
Caleb Lawson:
Well, if you’re gonna do something like that, you cannot warranty
Jeff Girard:
No,
Caleb Lawson:
very
Jeff Girard:
you can’t
Caleb Lawson:
much.
Jeff Girard:
because it’s all the responsibilities on the customer. But here’s where choices as a manufacturer really start to affect me and the industry as a whole. So if you start making choices based on your personal feelings as a manufacturer, ignoring the needs of the customer, that’s rather short-sighted because I could have the perfect customer. Right? I could have a customer that says, I want my concrete to acquire a patina. I want to feel bare concrete. I want to feel, you know, I want to have it live. Right? I want that living finish, which is just a way of saying, it’s going to change and oxidize and stain. Great. And they’re happy with it. OK, but this is human psychology. So you and your customer have this relationship that is
Caleb Lawson:
That children are awake now, they’re knocking
Jeff Girard:
at
Caleb Lawson:
at
Jeff Girard:
a
Caleb Lawson:
me.
Jeff Girard:
certain level, right? And then it’s fairly short-lived. It really, your relationship with your customer only lasts as long as the project. And then when the project’s done, they kind of forget about you. Now, customer has this beautiful concrete that maybe has a sealer that doesn’t perform very well or doesn’t, or stains or whatever. And they’ve kind of lived with it and they’re happy because they made the choice. And you… gave them what they wanted. And then they have this big party and their best friends come over. And their best friends don’t know anything about concrete. All they know is that they got this, they just redid their kitchen, they’re all excited to see it, and they walk in, and the first thing they see is a tea stain or a mustard stain or an etch mark or something. And the homeowner’s like, happy, look at these beautiful things. And they’re… their customers, their friends, their good friends, or their family, maybe their sister, maybe their mother, maybe their father, maybe their brother, maybe their cousin, their peers come in and say, you paid how much for that? And it’s staining and all of a sudden
Caleb Lawson:
Uh huh.
Jeff Girard:
their attitude changes like that.
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
Right? That’s human psychology. And now what was this wonderful asset now becomes this huge liability and they’re going to turn and come back at you and say, Hey, my concrete’s staining. Fix it.
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm
Jeff Girard:
But you’re like, but you wanted that, right?
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, I actually had an experience and I was much earlier much younger much more naive and If if this other artisan is listening, I won’t name them, but they’ll know who I’m talking about and I got a call From somebody down in Florida and They were like, my concrete stains, I can’t get ahold of the artisan. And I was like, this is weird because the artisan I know of and I really respect their work. And so anyway, I encouraged the homeowner to get back in touch with the artisan and they tried and, or they say they tried. And, you know, blah, blah. Long story short, I gave them a price to refinish the, you know, the, it was bathroom vanity and the bathtub and the shower. And I told them, I said, now, I cannot guarantee that I will get the stains out.
Jeff Girard:
Mm-hmm.
Caleb Lawson:
I can tell you that I can protect you going forward.
Jeff Girard:
Mm-hmm.
Caleb Lawson:
And I repeated, I mean, that was in the language of the contract, that was in my emails, that was in my text messages, I was very adamant, like, I cannot necessarily get everything out, I can protect you going forward. So that was the expectation I set. And I got down there and sure enough it was all stained and it didn’t look like there was a seal around it at all. And so I asked her a little bit about it and she was like, well, I it was a tongue oil. And I thought, well, that’s kind of weird.
Jeff Girard:
Bad choice.
Caleb Lawson:
You know,
Jeff Girard:
Don’t
Caleb Lawson:
whatever.
Jeff Girard:
do that.
Caleb Lawson:
So anyway, I. you know, in place, kind of sanded it, and got it ready for a sealer, and I put a new sealer on it, and I was like, you’re protected going forward. Now, she wasn’t super happy, because her expectation was not the one I set, which was annoying, but here we are. You know, I repeatedly, I could probably pull up text messages and emails and find eight instances where I said, I can protect you going forward. That was my, like, phrase of choice, and I said that to her. right after i sealed it before she looked at it i said that to her before i got there i said that to her in an email i said that to her in a contract i can protect you going forward i can’t do anything else necessarily and um anyway so i leave and i finally got in touch with the uh i finally decided to get in touch with the other artisan uh and i was like can you give me a little background here and his response was yeah she begged me for a tongue-loyal finish She did not want a sealer, she wanted it to live, blah-bity-blah-bity-blah, and I didn’t warranty it because she chose that. And so really it was actually on her, and I made the mistake of trying to fix something that I should not have gotten involved in at all.
Jeff Girard:
right.
Caleb Lawson:
And so, you know, it’s just… If you as an artisan are going to choose a finish… or lack thereof because you like the way that it looks and feels to you when the concrete is new, please think about five or seven or ten years down the line. And I think no matter how hard somebody begged me now, now back then,
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
I surely would have made that mistake too. I mean, you know, none of us are immune. Right? I’ve made so many mistakes. Like, none of us are immune to mistakes, and I guarantee you that’s one I would have made had I not had that experience.
Jeff Girard:
Right.
Caleb Lawson:
And I’m sure that this other guy has not made that choice again for the same reason. I mean, it’s just, it’s a headache. And, you know, so we ended up getting into a sealer talk, which I didn’t really intend to, but it happens.
Jeff Girard:
It happens.
Caleb Lawson:
You know.
Jeff Girard:
But this is another facet of the larger topic we’re diving into. We started last week, we’re gonna continue on, is the nuances of this industry of… And the sort of, and this is sort of one of these, um, minefields of picking and choosing bits of information and, and ideas, uh, without knowing, having greater context of, or a greater understanding of things. Um, I was, we were, before we started recording this, we, we were chatting about some of the things we’re going to talk about. And, um, you know, I had mentioned how, And I’ve done this too. Like, everybody does it. You did it, and you’re gonna give me an example, and I’ve done it too, is, let’s say, I gotta fix something on my car. And, like, I grew up fixing cars, so I have lots of tools and things like that, so I have the tools, and I have basic knowledge of stuff. I even have…
Caleb Lawson:
You have a Haynes manual in there somewhere?
Jeff Girard:
No, I have the service manual, right? Right.
Caleb Lawson:
Big
Jeff Girard:
All
Caleb Lawson:
boy.
Jeff Girard:
like 800 pages of it. And, uh, but you know, there are things that it doesn’t necessarily talk about. So it’s like, Hey, I needed to change. Um, you know, I needed to change the oxygen sensors and not, it’s not like I don’t know what they are and I don’t, you know, the manual tells me that, but. Where are. how what’s the best way to get to them because I don’t want to have to take the rear bumper off it’s a pain in the butt and maybe the maybe there’s some tips so I went on to youtube and sure it’s like okay if you do this and use these combinations of extensions you can get up there and it’s easy and that’s not covered in the book right so I used youtube for instance as a way of solving a very specific problem
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm,
Jeff Girard:
but
Caleb Lawson:
but YouTube is not necessarily generally meant to solve general problems
Jeff Girard:
Right, right. It doesn’t assume that I have the tools, know how to use them, or anything peripheral to that, like, how do I even know I need to change the oxygen sensors or anything like that?
Caleb Lawson:
You gotta get
Jeff Girard:
And
Caleb Lawson:
there first, right? So.
Jeff Girard:
there’s a lot, there’s a whole galaxy of information that I need to have an awareness of. and a certain level of expertise to be able to even get to the point where I’m going to decide, hey, I’m going to do this myself
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
and I’m going to be successful at it. Now, in a situation where somebody’s trying to say getting into this concrete, into concrete, making things out of concrete, and you know, because we sell, we sell products, we sell sealers, as I mentioned before, we have a line of alpha products which we’re expanding and like our alpha fluidizer for instance it’s the most powerful.
Caleb Lawson:
Oh my gosh.
Jeff Girard:
TBP we’ll use these letters because I guess letters are important right the most or TMP the most powerful plasticizer on the market compared to all the other ones even with letters on them that I’ve checked it’s more powerful than that. Very, very huge cellar, right? And so, we
Caleb Lawson:
It’s
Jeff Girard:
get a
Caleb Lawson:
a
Jeff Girard:
lot
Caleb Lawson:
sledgehammer.
Jeff Girard:
of people.
Caleb Lawson:
It is a-
Jeff Girard:
It is a 20 pound sledgehammer. And if that’s what it’s for, like you want to make fluid concrete, you want to make self-consolidated concrete, it is the tool to use. So, we get, I’ve gotten a few emails recently. Kim, our customer service person who, if you ever call us, she’s the one you talk to, she’ll get these emails and I’ll, she’ll forward them to me and she’s like, man, this, we’ve got a couple of these people are very abrasive and you know, defensive and like, why are they, why are they being basically rude? And it’s because you’re like, well, I want to, I want to buy your product, but I want you to tell me how much to use.
Caleb Lawson:
It’s like, you cannot
Jeff Girard:
And it’s like, well,
Caleb Lawson:
do that.
Jeff Girard:
in the description right there, it says, here’s a suggested starting point.
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
But we can’t tell you exactly what you need to use because we don’t know anything about your mix. You’re gonna have to do trial batches. And, do people not read?
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, I mean, I’ve seen, you
Jeff Girard:
And
Caleb Lawson:
know…
Jeff Girard:
this is a very isolated, these are a couple isolated cases here. A lot of people have very, very good success with using things. It’s like,
Caleb Lawson:
But I did have to do experimentation first.
Jeff Girard:
Right. But it’s no different than say, I want to make a color. Like I want to make the color, here I am pointing behind, that chair, which under white light is sort of a… This is going to sound really weird. It’s a warm, orangey, cranberry red. That’s an Aero-Serenian chair. That’s an interesting fabric, it’s original fabric. And it’s got a really cool red. Now if I wanted to make that color out of concrete, I need to understand…
Caleb Lawson:
other theory.
Jeff Girard:
Color theory, I need to understand what pigments are available, how to blend them, dosing and things like that. And even with that general sense of understanding,
Caleb Lawson:
You still
Jeff Girard:
I
Caleb Lawson:
have
Jeff Girard:
actually
Caleb Lawson:
to throw
Jeff Girard:
have
Caleb Lawson:
a
Jeff Girard:
to
Caleb Lawson:
grenade
Jeff Girard:
start making
Caleb Lawson:
and see what
Jeff Girard:
samples
Caleb Lawson:
color explodes,
Jeff Girard:
and trying,
Caleb Lawson:
right?
Jeff Girard:
right? So this whole like topic of learning how to master your material and learning how to be successful with things often comes down to, hey, I gotta just make some concrete. I gotta
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
see what
Caleb Lawson:
I think
Jeff Girard:
happens.
Caleb Lawson:
there’s a big assumption in a lot of industries, but this one is not exempt that if I go and buy the best X, Y, or Z as purported by the manufacturer. And again, we’re not exempt to that either. I think Omega. We think Omega’s the best. Jeff’s the manufacturer. So there’s some bias there. I have a lot of, I mean I’ve been using Omega longer than anybody else in the industry as a production sealer,
Jeff Girard:
Mm-hmm.
Caleb Lawson:
and I love it. So you know, there’s experience there that informs my opinion, but you know, if you go and buy the best X, and then expect that it will work because you bought it, and not, you know… I think that the manufacturers are assuming a certain level of understanding pre-purchase. And so, you know, if you as a complete novice go and buy the perfect concrete countertop mix, whatever that might be, but you don’t know how to mix colors, you don’t know what the pigments are, you don’t, I mean, you’re trying to make fire engine red with red oxide, that will not work. Why
Jeff Girard:
Yeah,
Caleb Lawson:
not?
Jeff Girard:
I could go
Caleb Lawson:
It’s red.
Jeff Girard:
buy a $10,000 digital camera because
Caleb Lawson:
Right.
Jeff Girard:
it’s the best
Caleb Lawson:
That doesn’t
Jeff Girard:
or the
Caleb Lawson:
make
Jeff Girard:
best
Caleb Lawson:
you a
Jeff Girard:
that’s
Caleb Lawson:
photographer.
Jeff Girard:
in the store. That doesn’t make me a good photographer. It means I have a very expensive camera that probably doesn’t make pictures any better than what my phone can do because
Caleb Lawson:
It’s
Jeff Girard:
I
Caleb Lawson:
like
Jeff Girard:
don’t know
Caleb Lawson:
I
Jeff Girard:
how
Caleb Lawson:
can
Jeff Girard:
to
Caleb Lawson:
go
Jeff Girard:
use it.
Caleb Lawson:
buy a, you know, $1.4 million Bugatti as for my 14 year old, you know, I don’t have a 14 year old, but it’s like for my teenager and expect them to drive. No, that’s not how that works. Just because I bought the best of something doesn’t mean, you know, and it may very well, it may or may not be the best. I think it’s worth testing yourself. That’s one thing we’ve said throughout this podcast throughout Jeff’s career, you know, in my comings and goings as a, you know, since I’ve been an instructor at the CCI, I’ve said, this may be the best, test all of them, right?
Jeff Girard:
Thank you.
Caleb Lawson:
You know, our modus operandi is test your stuff. Whether you think it’s the best or not, like, put it up against something else. I think there’s something that this culture lately has lacked. It’s like I’ve… Debates aren’t a thing, you know? Testing isn’t a thing. It’s like, I wanna put what I believe to be the best, whether it’s product or argument or whatever, up against what somebody else believes to be the best product or argument or whatever, and see what actually stands up, because that’s how you get informed, and you know, to me, if something else stands up better, I’ll change my opinion, but I’d like to see it happen. You know, I’d like to… And a lot of people just want to be told what’s going to work. And sometimes we can’t tell you that, you know, it’s like what plasticizer dose or fluidizer dose is going to give you a self consolidating concrete
Jeff Girard:
I don’t know
Caleb Lawson:
wall.
Jeff Girard:
what concrete mix you’re using.
Caleb Lawson:
What?
Jeff Girard:
I don’t
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
know what
Caleb Lawson:
What?
Jeff Girard:
water cement ratio you’re
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
using.
Caleb Lawson:
What’s your water cement ratio? How much positive are you using? If you’re using Portland, how, uh, you know, what do you want
Jeff Girard:
Are
Caleb Lawson:
it
Jeff Girard:
you
Caleb Lawson:
to
Jeff Girard:
vibrating
Caleb Lawson:
look like?
Jeff Girard:
the concrete or not? How
Caleb Lawson:
And.
Jeff Girard:
are you casting
Caleb Lawson:
And
Jeff Girard:
it?
Caleb Lawson:
what’s your mixer? Are you using a single head column mix? Are you using a single head Harbor Freight mixer? Are you using a double head column mix? Are you using a, you know,
Jeff Girard:
for Neimer Vertical
Caleb Lawson:
a vertical
Jeff Girard:
Shaft
Caleb Lawson:
shaft
Jeff Girard:
Mixery.
Caleb Lawson:
mixer? Or are you using a rim craft? Like all of these things make a difference in how your plasticizer disperses and works. And so, you know, longer periods of mixing with an arm, you all right? with an Eimer vertical shaft mixer is gonna let the concrete air rate out, you know, degas a little bit more. So you’re gonna get more self-consolidating, but you need high shear for GFRC. And so like, there’s a lot of things that you’ve gotta know
Jeff Girard:
Right.
Caleb Lawson:
that you wouldn’t know if you don’t know them.
Jeff Girard:
Well, you know, I
Caleb Lawson:
You
Jeff Girard:
think
Caleb Lawson:
don’t
Jeff Girard:
I
Caleb Lawson:
want
Jeff Girard:
mentioned this
Caleb Lawson:
to know.
Jeff Girard:
early on. You know what you know, you know what you don’t know, but you have
Caleb Lawson:
You
Jeff Girard:
no
Caleb Lawson:
don’t
Jeff Girard:
clue
Caleb Lawson:
know
Jeff Girard:
of
Caleb Lawson:
what
Jeff Girard:
what
Caleb Lawson:
to do.
Jeff Girard:
you don’t know. And it’s that vast dark universe of unknown that that’s where success is, right? That’s the more you push that veil of unknown.
Caleb Lawson:
away.
Jeff Girard:
away from you. And if you don’t know that it even exists, you can’t go and learn on your own. That’s why it’s so important to go learn from somebody who’s more experienced and who has greater knowledge.
Caleb Lawson:
I heard somebody recently say that you need two very important relationships in your life. You need a mentor and a mentee relationship. Because you need to, when you teach, you learn more, I think. And then when you are mentored, when you are a mentee, you are humbled. And so I think everybody needs both.
Jeff Girard:
Absolutely.
Caleb Lawson:
You know, you need somebody who is mentoring you and you need somebody to mentor. And, you know, so that’s one of the reasons I accepted the invitation when Jeff said, hey, can you come, you know, work with me on these classes, you know, because I recognized my own need to gain more experience and knowledge while, you know. aiming to help other people
Jeff Girard:
Right.
Caleb Lawson:
in my craft, in my trade.
Jeff Girard:
And here’s the challenge for me, right? I’ve been doing this for a long, long time and they’re very, I don’t wanna say there’s nobody, cause that would be arrogant and absolutely incorrect. There’s nobody that I can learn from because I learned from a lot of people. But I have to now look outside of this industry to other professions for deeper aspects like we did at the Legends class in May last month. The big project that we did was post-tensioning.
Caleb Lawson:
uh it’s instagram’s favorite table right now have you listen have you seen the um i think the video of that table is up to a hundred thousand views
Jeff Girard:
Great, great, that’s fantastic.
Caleb Lawson:
Instagram
Jeff Girard:
So,
Caleb Lawson:
is favorite.
Jeff Girard:
you know, again, not to get off on the topic, but like post-sensioning is certainly not a topic that’s new in the civil engineering world. Right now it’s probably…
Caleb Lawson:
It seems relatively mysterious in our little niche, though.
Jeff Girard:
Right. But again, it’s not new. And there are a handful of people who have taught it and a bunch of people who do it. And I have resisted talking about it and teaching it mainly for two reasons. One, I didn’t fully understand how to analyze it from a structural standpoint. And I’m not satisfied of just going seat of the pants, hey, I’m gonna go to Home Depot and buy some threaded rod. stick it in a plastic pipe and tighten some nuts and hope for the best. Because that’s not how you do things and that’s certainly not how you can teach somebody. That’s just winging it and faking it. So, I wanted to really understand how is it done in the real world? Like, how is it done for buildings? I used to live in… I lived in a building that was made out of concrete. It had post-tension concrete floors. That’s how a lot of concrete buildings are done. And I ordered a textbook from a very, very well-respected university in California written by the son of one of the guys who learned from the engineer who developed at TY Lin. He developed the modern way of analyzing post-tension concrete. So I went as close to the source as I could and I had to teach myself how to do this because I didn’t learn this in school. It was an advanced topic and I changed my, you know, reinforced concrete was very much something I was interested in, but it wasn’t my, not what I had my master’s degree in, so I never got to that aspect of it, that facet of it. So it was an avenue that was new to me and unknown and because I’m not unknown, if I’m not comfortable… If I don’t
Caleb Lawson:
You don’t
Jeff Girard:
understand
Caleb Lawson:
taste things
Jeff Girard:
it, I’m
Caleb Lawson:
that
Jeff Girard:
not
Caleb Lawson:
you’re
Jeff Girard:
going to
Caleb Lawson:
not
Jeff Girard:
teach
Caleb Lawson:
comfortable
Jeff Girard:
somebody
Caleb Lawson:
with, right?
Jeff Girard:
about it. And I’m certainly not going to pretend I know about it, because I’ve done it 16 times. That’s
Caleb Lawson:
Well,
Jeff Girard:
not…
Caleb Lawson:
and I will say, as you know, I’ve worked with you for seven years now, and I mean, we started planning that table six months before we made it. I mean, so you really did a deep dive on, and I mean, to the calculator, I’m sure you’ve got like the calculator that you developed for it, you know, because people are like, well, two and a half turns is not, it’s like, doesn’t it? That’s not a number. It does correspond to a specific amount of torque.
Jeff Girard:
Yeah. And it’s, you know, if we didn’t publish the lecture, I gave, it seemed like 20 minutes, but it was probably like 45 minutes or so.
Caleb Lawson:
It was an L. Ha ha ha!
Jeff Girard:
An hour long lecture of, you know, the high level stuff of why I configured it the way I configured it, which is not the way everybody else does it, because that’s not how it’s done in the real world. And then why we turned the nuts the number of times and I did the math. using the modulus of elasticity of the steel and the pit thread pitch and the length and all that. So when you when you take away and this kind of gets at the heart of what I’m getting at is when you take away all the deep background stuff that leads up to a particular process or decision or step that you take and you only say the end result you and the end result of this is yes we’re three turns or two and a half turns and you don’t say anything else. It’s easy to misconstrue. Well, how did you get there? Are you just making that up and without the understanding of knowing well, I need to stretch this rod so many inches because that’s going to give me the develop the stress in that rod to give me the predicted upload that this configuration does. I’m being vague here and not being very specific on purpose because it would just take too long to explain. You know, if you only say turn it two times, well, there’s no context.
Caleb Lawson:
It’s like that doesn’t apply to everything. And so.
Jeff Girard:
It doesn’t apply to everything. It’s specific to this exact project and no other project. You can’t apply that as a general wave your hands. That’s how you do it. And that… extends to things like your super plasticizer. I can’t tell somebody, look, always use a half a percent dose or always use two tablespoons, you know, if you measure things in tablespoons, which you shouldn’t be doing, but some people do, because I don’t know what you’re putting it in and what you’re trying to get out of it. Like if you, if you say, okay, I’ve got, I like to use props, pretend this is a pigment. I’ve never used it before. It’s, it’s Acme concrete pigment and it’s this magic clear pigment. Right. And I’ve never used it before. And the manufacturer says, Use this amount. Okay,
Caleb Lawson:
For
Jeff Girard:
I can,
Caleb Lawson:
what?
Jeff Girard:
what am I gonna get out of it? The only way I know what that amount is gonna do is to make the concrete and look at it. Well, what if it’s too much? Then I need to use less. Well, how much less do I use? I don’t know until I do it, right? I can guess I can use, maybe I’m gonna do half as much or maybe I’m gonna use a fifth as much. But I won’t know what that color is gonna be until I make it. So, That’s an important thing. That’s part of that investigation closing loop of you have a set of instructions that are guidance, but
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
that guidance is based on knowing what you’re supposed to do and getting results that means something. So I wanted to kind of touch back on, we were
Caleb Lawson:
Well,
Jeff Girard:
talking,
Caleb Lawson:
OK, so in a roundabout
Jeff Girard:
go ahead
Caleb Lawson:
way,
Jeff Girard:
and walk
Caleb Lawson:
we’re
Jeff Girard:
back
Caleb Lawson:
basically
Jeff Girard:
to this.
Caleb Lawson:
saying, look, we, I mean, that’s the whole reason that you founded the Concrete Countertop Institute was you wanted to teach people how to fish rather than just giving them a fish and saying, you know, because it’s like if you just put a hook in the water, you’re not going to get anything. You have to know what kind of bait for the type of fish that you’re trying to catch in the weather conditions. and you have to know where to fish to get the type of fish. You can’t go get mahi in a river, right?
Jeff Girard:
Just because you have a pole and a body of water doesn’t mean you’re going to catch anything.
Caleb Lawson:
Right, so it’s like we’re trying to illustrate to anybody listening, you know, it’s like we want you to be successful. We understand that there are a lot of gray areas. I mean, you mentioned Dylan Myers earlier. He does a lot of things that are artsy and,
Jeff Girard:
Rule breaky.
Caleb Lawson:
yeah, I mean, his whole thing is learned, you know. learn the rules, be an expert in the rules so you can break them like an artist or something like that. It’s like, yeah, but you got to know them first. And so, you know, I think, again, Patrick Galladay, his podcast is called the Craftsman Collective. So hopefully that comes back and go listen to it. But he has a lot of techniques that break rules too. And I think that that’s great, provided you know the rules and he does. And
Jeff Girard:
And there’s
Caleb Lawson:
so,
Jeff Girard:
a flip
Caleb Lawson:
you
Jeff Girard:
side
Caleb Lawson:
know,
Jeff Girard:
to that too, is if you say, well, I don’t have the time or it’s too expensive to learn or to be taught, I’m going to kind of do this on my own, I’m going to cherry pick,
Caleb Lawson:
What do you actually spend
Jeff Girard:
you know,
Caleb Lawson:
in learning though?
Jeff Girard:
pearls
Caleb Lawson:
I mean,
Jeff Girard:
of
Caleb Lawson:
think
Jeff Girard:
wisdom
Caleb Lawson:
about.
Jeff Girard:
here and there to help me get through my project. If you kind of follow that process of having very spotty knowledge. and then saying, well, I’m just going to buy or rely on a product where somebody has thought for me. And I don’t have to think because it’s all in the bag, right? The, the, sure, you can do. what that product lets you do.
Caleb Lawson:
Right.
Jeff Girard:
but you don’t know how to solve problems. You don’t know how to diagnose challenges. And what if you’re asked or tasked to do something that’s outside of the scope that material, that product will let you do? Well, now you’re left to wing it. And sure, this is the realm of hobbyists and a lot of this industry, you know, having been in this for close to 25 years now. A lot of the people are approached as a hobby. You know, they tinker, they play, things are changing all the time, and that’s all well and good, right? But CCI is business-oriented first. So when we say we want you to be successful, it’s not about just having a piece of concrete that you’re happy with. It’s being able to support your family. and run a business and be profitable, and knowing how to set expectations and have a good contract, and deal with how do you handle conflict, how do you handle issues, how do you prevent them in the first place? So it’s a much broader scope than just, here’s how you cast an X or a Y or a Z, or this is how you make. a certain kind of thing or a certain kind of concrete or a certain kind of finish. That’s, that’s very tactical. That’s, that’s very superficial because those are things that are done to a piece of concrete or a project. Those are not going to necessarily make you a better business person or manufacturer.
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
And it’s, it’s the larger universe of, of all the knowledge and experience that go into running a shop and running a business with employees and all that makes you successful. It’s
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
not just what mix do I buy or what sealer do I use. Now those are important aspects of it because
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
you choose the wrong product or the wrong sealer or the wrong pigment at your peril.
Caleb Lawson:
Now I hear
Jeff Girard:
But
Caleb Lawson:
a child.
Jeff Girard:
those are not necessarily guarantees of success.
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, exactly. And welcome to… Yeah, come meet my children.
Jeff Girard:
It’s…
Caleb Lawson:
You’ve met them, but the audience hasn’t. Hello! Can you say hi? Say
Jeff Girard:
Hey
Caleb Lawson:
hi
Jeff Girard:
boys,
Caleb Lawson:
to the… Say hi to Mr. Jeff.
Jeff Girard:
you’re famous. You’re on
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
the internet.
Caleb Lawson:
you’re on the internet now. This is like a YouTube. This is gonna be on YouTube. Don’t you always… Haven’t you always wanted to be on YouTube?
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
Talk to YouTube! Mm-hmm. Can you say hi? Dada. Yes.
Jeff Girard:
In
Caleb Lawson:
What
Jeff Girard:
10
Caleb Lawson:
is that?
Jeff Girard:
years, when you see this, guys, you’re gonna be so embarrassed. Ha ha
Caleb Lawson:
Oh
Jeff Girard:
ha.
Caleb Lawson:
it’s my G place. This is my G place. Oh my goodness. Hey, have fun with Nana today, okay?
Jeff Girard:
Bye
Caleb Lawson:
Okay!
Jeff Girard:
guys.
Caleb Lawson:
I love you. Have a good day, okay? Bye bye and I love you. Alright, I love you. Say bye to Mr. Jeff. Bye bye, Sibyl. Dad, that FN train has got that shovel. I know. Are you happy with Manny? So happy. And it’s a shawl. Yup. Alright. Shasha. I love you. Have a good day. Bye bye and I love you.
Jeff Girard:
Or we’re beyond an hour and
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
we really haven’t even talked about kind of what we were planning on, but that’s okay.
Caleb Lawson:
Listen,
Jeff Girard:
We can touch
Caleb Lawson:
this
Jeff Girard:
on that
Caleb Lawson:
is a
Jeff Girard:
next
Caleb Lawson:
conversation
Jeff Girard:
week.
Caleb Lawson:
and we want to, I think that’s
Jeff Girard:
We’re
Caleb Lawson:
what
Jeff Girard:
conversating.
Caleb Lawson:
we are conversating. Yeah, so next week we will loosely probably talk about getting, not really, because I feel like we’ve done like a deep dive into concrete mix designs, but I think a deeper like exploration of something to that effect.
Jeff Girard:
You know, it’s, there’s still a lot of misconception. And I even get this from people who come to class and are, have kind of already read up on stuff. What does some of the ingredients do? Or how do things work together?
Caleb Lawson:
Well, and one thing I would encourage anybody listening, you know, well, come to class, first of all.
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
You know, because
Jeff Girard:
In August.
Caleb Lawson:
we’ve got August 7th through 11th, we’ve got December 4th through 8th, we’ve got November 9th and 10th. And I think that there’s a lot of like, oh, well, I’m not going to do this for a career, so maybe I don’t need to come. And I think that’s, you know. If you’re a general contractor and you get asked for it a lot and you don’t have somebody in your area and you want to be able to provide that to your clients, well come yourself or send a superintendent or project manager or maybe you’re a homeowner but you’re really intent on doing things the right way,
Jeff Girard:
Mm-hmm.
Caleb Lawson:
honestly the price of the class is going to be less than you would have paid for all the countertops by a large margin so it’s going to be worth your time there because you’re going to have to live with it. So it’s like… It doesn’t, you don’t have to be somebody doing this as a career to come to class. Um, you know, and
Jeff Girard:
I’m going
Caleb Lawson:
it’s
Jeff Girard:
to
Caleb Lawson:
gonna,
Jeff Girard:
throw out
Caleb Lawson:
it’s
Jeff Girard:
a
Caleb Lawson:
gonna
Jeff Girard:
challenge.
Caleb Lawson:
help.
Jeff Girard:
I’m going to throw out a challenge here. Every single designer, architect, whoever who is interested in using concrete. Come to class, learn how it is, because I
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah!
Jeff Girard:
guarantee you what you think it is and how it’s made isn’t the way it really is done.
Caleb Lawson:
Well, and it’ll open your eyes too. I mean, you think about, you know, designers and architects have to do a lot of continuing education, right? So if you’re an architect or you’re a designer and you want to spec something like this, which you should, cause it’s awesome, um, come and recognize that, you know, it’s not just countertops. Like we’re the concrete countertop Institute because that’s what it was, you know, when you founded the company. But like we’re talking, you know, if you’re a commercial, whoever FF&E, we’re talking about, you know, uh, little lampshades. We’re talking
Jeff Girard:
That’s
Caleb Lawson:
about.
Jeff Girard:
concrete. Right,
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
it’s an eighth of an inch thick.
Caleb Lawson:
I’ve just did plaques, I’ve done medallions, I mean we’re doing bathtubs and range hoods and all sorts of crazy stuff
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
that falls under the category of I don’t know, let’s figure it out. Let’s make something crazy, let’s make something awesome. So even if it’s just a continuing education of learn more about the things you’re specking and learn how to do it yourself if you want to. learn how to set the expectations for your clients so that whether you’re doing it or you found a talented artisan, you can help field those questions. I think it’s an incredibly valuable resource for anybody
Jeff Girard:
How
Caleb Lawson:
who…
Jeff Girard:
can you design something when you don’t understand what the
Caleb Lawson:
how
Jeff Girard:
material
Caleb Lawson:
it works.
Jeff Girard:
is or how it works or how it’s made?
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
So,
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, so
Jeff Girard:
there’s a challenge
Caleb Lawson:
I think that
Jeff Girard:
for
Caleb Lawson:
challenge
Jeff Girard:
you.
Caleb Lawson:
is excellent. Yeah, come on. Come on to class all you architects, designers, builders, you know, we want we want to get to know you and you know Want you to be able to spec something and build something and use something that you understand really well
Jeff Girard:
Right.
Caleb Lawson:
you know, it’s like I like to work on cars, you know, like you. I grew up working on cars. So I’ve got an old CJ-7 out there in the garage. And, you know, there was a puddle under it one day. And, you know, it took, I smelled the fluid. I knew it wasn’t oil. I knew it wasn’t, you know, water. I knew it wasn’t X, Y, or Z. It was power steering fluid. And how do I know that? Because I have a base knowledge of understanding how the motor functions. So all of that to say. We’ve given you a lot of analogies this week. We’ve got an hour and 14 minutes plus our time pre-recording. But yeah, we’re out there to help. We’re recording this to help. We’re spending our time doing this to help. We want you to be successful.
Jeff Girard:
Woof!
Caleb Lawson:
Thanks for joining the Maker in the Mix podcast as we went over an hour. And
Jeff Girard:
All right.
Caleb Lawson:
yeah,
Jeff Girard:
And
Caleb Lawson:
so.
Jeff Girard:
we want to hear from you guys too. Like obviously this is not a, it could be, you could be on, you could join us. But send us some feedback.
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeff Girard:
Tell us some of the challenges you’re faced with. Tell us some war stories. Positive, happy things we can share with folks. Tell us some hair pulling frustrations.
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, and we’ve got, I know we’ve got at least one guest planned. We’re waiting on some availability from him. So excited to have, have him on. So we’ll, we’ll plug that soon. But, um, so we’ve talked about ovation. We talked about Omega. One thing I failed to mention, ovation can be used to augment the color of the countertop, so it does not enhance the color. So if you want to use it as a primer under Omega, do that. And, um, If you’ve gotten this far, you’ll get a tip. I just discovered a new way of priming Omega, and I’m going to do a video on it at some point soon. But discovered that you can prime Omega the same way that you do the finish coat, which is just in a spray bottle and back roll. So
Jeff Girard:
RAH
Caleb Lawson:
I will give more details on that in a blog post or another podcast or a video of some kind. So be looking out for that. So if you made it this far, there’s your tip.
Jeff Girard:
See, it’s
Caleb Lawson:
Um.
Jeff Girard:
important to stick around all the way to the end because that’s where all the good stuff is.
Caleb Lawson:
That’s right. All right, Jeff, well, I’ll chat with you later. I’m going to throw the outro up here, so don’t leave quite yet. But look forward to next week’s podcast. And thank you all for listening. Have a great day.
Jeff Girard:
Thanks for joining us. Bye.
Caleb Lawson:
Bye!