Description
In this thought-provoking episode, we delve into the significance of integrity in business and shed light on recent questionable actions we learned about through another podcast. We strongly denounce dishonesty and engage in a profound exploration of the principles of integrity, its implementation, and its crucial role in fostering a thriving business environment.
Join us as we emphasize the core values that guide The Concrete Countertop Institute (CCI) in delivering training, content, and conduct steeped in integrity. We also address the importance of responsible communication and the potential consequences of spreading false information, such as the legal implications of libel and slander.
Experience “Truth in Training” as we empower you with the knowledge and skills needed to excel in the creative concrete industry while upholding ethical standards and promoting fair competition.
Don’t miss out on our upcoming training opportunities:
- Ultimate Creative Concrete Course: August 7-11 or December 4-8, 2023. Register here.
- 2-Day Professional GFRC: November 9-10, 2023. Register here.
At CCI, we firmly believe in transparency, authenticity, and the unwavering commitment to provide you with exceptional training rooted in truth, integrity, and a scientific foundation.
Browse this website to explore our array of courses, resources, and join a community dedicated to excellence.
Together, let’s build a future founded on truth, integrity, and responsible communication in the creative concrete industry.
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Transcript
Jeff Girard:
morning, everyone.
Caleb Lawson:
everybody. Welcome to the Maker and the Mix podcast. I’m Caleb Lawson as I said in the intro. That’s a preliminary intro. We’re kind of working some kinks out there.
Jeff Girard:
We’re getting fancy!
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah. So again, welcome to a new episode of the Maker in the Mix. Super excited to have you on. Before we, well, and you may notice that we’ve got a new platform. So there’s a new link up on the website. We’re not on Zoom anymore. So this will have a little bit more. This platform has a few more features and allows us to post to some more platforms. So hopefully you’ll be listening on other platforms soon.
Jeff Girard:
as we want to reach as many of you as possible.
Caleb Lawson:
Absolutely. So before we dive into kind of what we had. scheduled for today, which is related as it turns out. But I wanted to address something that came to our attention through the grapevine. It was brought to our attention during a recent listen on an industry-related podcast where the hosts discussed some pretty alarming allegations of unsolicited calls made by a competitor of theirs. These calls involved spreading false information about a specific product and even branding it as an expensive filler. I want to make really clear that we believe in healthy competition, but we believe in above board actions.
Jeff Girard:
Absolutely.
Caleb Lawson:
At the Concrete Countertop Institute and on the Maker in the Mix podcast, we prioritize integrity and honesty above all else. We firmly believe that fair competition is the cornerstone of our industry and it’s crucial to maintain an environment of professionalism and respect within the Concrete community. Making false public statements can have serious legal consequences, falling under the realm of libel or slander, and we want to make it known that we strongly condemn anyone who stoops that low.
Jeff Girard:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
Kind of back to what we do, our commitment to integrity extends far beyond mere words. It’s the foundation on which Jeff and Lane have built the Concrete Countertop Institute, how we orient our courses and how we’re building this podcast. We’re dedicated to providing accurate, reliable information. Supported through research and our extensive experience, our mission is to equip you, our listeners and hopefully our students and our passionate artisans with knowledge and skills necessary to excel in the world of craftsmanship with concrete. When you tune into this podcast, you can expect more than just surface level information. We delve into the depths of concrete mastery, exploring the latest techniques backed by scientific understanding and proven expertise, focuses on practical knowledge that actually works, not just empty claims or flashy gimmicks. We wanna define everything for you and give you everything tool wise that you need. So we wanna stand together as a community and together condemn that kind of action.
Jeff Girard:
Absolutely.
Caleb Lawson:
And so with that, we’re going to kind of jump into the topic, which like I said earlier, is related to that. And we’re going to talk about integrity in business, because that’s something that we think is super important, of course, and again, is related. So that’s me talking a lot. So I wanted to ask Jeff real quick, you know. You were in the production zone, the production space, in your business, and then you transitioned from that to teaching full time. So before you transitioned to teaching full time, what made you start training people? What kind of got you from production to the training space?
Jeff Girard:
So for those who don’t know my backstory, I got started in this industry, in the concrete countertop industry, before it was an industry. Coming up this summer, it will be 24 years ago. So I am by no means one of the early founders, that would be Buddy Rhodes, Fu Tung Cheng, and a handful of other very skilled artisans and business people, some of whom I still know very well. My background is as a civil engineer. So I went to school, I got a bachelor’s and a master’s in civil engineering. I have a, I still suck at pointing backwards like this, a professional engineer’s license. So this is like a medical doctor has their medical license, a lawyer has their, they pass the bar, they have their legal license. Well, engineers, professional engineers have licenses. I have my license. And then down here, I’ll talk about what this is in a sec. So. I got started doing this, and I mentioned this in our very first, one of our early podcasts, how I read an article about Body Rose and that inspired me to make my own concrete countertops. And that story you can read more about that on the CCI website. But really what got me into teaching was a meeting that I had, I was invited to one of the big industries. It was called the, it was not a conference per se, but it was a meeting of a handful of people who were doing this. That’s where I met Buddy Rhodes in person. That’s where I met Fu Tung Cheng. This was at Steve Rosenblatt’s house. He’s one of the owners of Sonoma Cast Sone. I met a number of other people. There were about 12 people there. And this is where Fu Tung presented his first book. before it was published. It was a physical 35 millimeter slideshow on a Carousel. So the purpose of this get together was to talk about where we saw the industry going, how to handle, how we all individually handled problems that we had. Sealer problems, cracking problems, customer problems, things like that. Many of the same issues that we still face today. And back then, there were only, like I said, a handful of people. Literally, there were only a dozen people there. And as many people as Steve could find across the United States who were available. So there were probably maybe twice as many people actively doing this, seriously. And I was kind of one of the new guys. I was, at the time, working out of my garage. I was by no means a big player or anything like that. I was just some guy who happened to have a technical background. And when I… I felt very privileged to be there. And when I was there, I heard from all these people I looked up to, because you’ve got to remember back 24 years ago, there really was no meaningful information. There was no social media, there was no YouTube, there was no Google, there was very, very little information. So these people only talked to each other either on the phone or through emails or via like message boards, Usenet message boards. And I looked up to these folks. Now, the landscape of the industry back then was every company developed their own mix, they had their own methods. Everything was a closely guarded secret. Information was not shared. And the information that was publicly available was really just your general kind of information of you’re gonna find the same thing about how to pour a sidewalk or DIY level stuff. And a lot of that information was frankly, technically wrong. And a good example of that would be, you know, way back then and still it’s prevalent nowadays in certain areas, where you put steel reinforcing. Now, you gotta remember this is pre-GFRC. This is before any of the really high-performance stuff that we use today. This was old school concrete. Sometimes it literally came out of a truck or came out of a bag that you bought at a home center. But a lot of these folks had created their own mixes and buddies, you know, craftsman mix was a good example of that. And the prevalent thought at the time was you put reinforcing in the middle because that’s what you saw people do. You know, when they poured slabs on the ground, that’s where they put it. So logically, if you don’t have a technical background, you go, well, that’s how concrete’s made and that’s how I’m gonna do it. And that’s an example of innocent misinformation and misinterpreting things and then repeating the process and also sharing that misinformation. It’s wrong technically, but it’s not malicious. And that kind of information really hampered the industry back then. And that’s where the notion that concrete really cracked, it’s very crack prone and you can’t do big slabs, you can’t do thin slabs.
Caleb Lawson:
Well, that’s
Jeff Girard:
And then,
Caleb Lawson:
what’s got you into making concrete countertops, right?
Jeff Girard:
yeah,
Jeff Girard:
that’s kind of what got me into making concrete countertops is because I didn’t want to just start following all the methods that were publicly available that all led to problems. And so in the course of creating my own countertop, I set up a website and I got people not just hiring me to make countertops, that’s how I started my countertop business, but I also had people from… other parts of the country asking me, how can you do what you do? How can you say what you do when other people are saying just the opposite?
Caleb Lawson:
Because you were saying, you were able to say to your clients, my concrete won’t stain or crack, which nobody else could say at the time,
Jeff Girard:
Right,
Caleb Lawson:
is my understanding.
Jeff Girard:
and that’s a strong claim, and strong claims need strong evidence to back that up. Well, I had two forms of evidence. One, I had my concrete to speak for me, and to me, you know, words are just words. Anybody can say anything. Now, there are repercussions of saying malicious things or wrong things, but anybody can say anything. If you have a product that does what you say it does… on a consistent basis, then that’s a very powerful evidence. That’s independent evidence outside of what I’m saying. So if somebody wants to believe me, they’re just taking my word for it. But on the other hand, I have credentials to back up what I’m saying. And those credentials are backed up by thousands and thousands of professionals all over the world studying, teaching, researching, and certifying and testing. that information.
Jeff Girard:
So it’s not.
Caleb Lawson:
Well, but beyond that, I think we talked earlier before we started recording about the oath that doctors take after they’ve gone through medical school and they’re board certified, they have to take the Hippocratic oath. And to me, that commitment goes beyond just the educational faculties of, it’s like,
Jeff Girard:
Absolutely.
Caleb Lawson:
yeah, you’re a smart guy, but also do you commit to this thing? So because I feel like there are, I mean, I don’t know if any of you listened to the Dr. Death podcast. If you didn’t, you should. It’s really fascinating. But it’s about this guy who was a medical doctor and clearly didn’t abide by the Hippocratic oath trying to keep up this illusion of actually being a qualified surgeon. And so that’s an aside, but my point is, didn’t you, Jeff, take the engineer’s equivalent and don’t you love my coffee cup?
Jeff Girard:
Yeah. Oh, it’s fantastic. So there’s actually two things and it refers that is what you’re referring to, but also that. So this is, like I said, this is my certificate. It’s a North Carolina professional engineer’s certification. This is my, it’s not a diploma, but it’s a certificate showing that I am a professional engineer. And if you look up, if you just Google what a professional engineer does for me to hold its license, right. Not only does it mean I have to have continuing education, but I can’t be charged with a felony or anything like that. I have to be an upstanding citizen to maintain this. And this, which is a little harder to see and is much less well known, and it’s why I wear this ring. This is not vanity. This is not jewelry. This is part of what this is. It’s the Order of the Engineer, and I’m going to share my screen for a second because it’s a copy of what this is. And this is an oath that I took. in 1989 and it’s extremely important to me so I’m going to share my screen for a second. So this is it, the obligations of an engineer. And so you can read this if you want, or you can just Google it. I’m not gonna read it to you for the sake of time. But all this is to basically publicly profess my responsibility and obligations to my profession. And as a civil engineer, that extends to the public, the people I… give my services to. And in this industry, that’s everybody. So I have a very deep obligation to being truthful and respectful and have the utmost integrity. Because without integrity, you’re nothing. And that’s kind of at the heart of what has, you know, spurred some of this talk today is,
Jeff Girard:
the integrity of…
Caleb Lawson:
Well, it’s somewhat prevalent in the construction industry in general, and we feel very bound by that. You’re bound by oath, and I feel very, very bound by the commitment that I’ve made to teach and train with CCI.
Jeff Girard:
I wouldn’t be working with you, Caleb, if you didn’t have integrity and you ooze integrity. So
Caleb Lawson:
Thank you.
Jeff Girard:
it’s, we both feel it’s very important. And so part of the discussion we wanna have is how can you portray that to your customers? How can you embrace integrity and let your customers know that you are trustworthy? that you are somebody who is upstanding and professional. Because what we do, our purpose is not to boost our egos. Our purpose is to make you successful. And,
Caleb Lawson:
Right, so
Jeff Girard:
yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
back to, before we get to that, back to, you know, so you’ve made this commitment and you’re at this conference
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
and then, you know, that sort of spurred on people started to ask you once you kind of got your name
Jeff Girard:
I guess
Caleb Lawson:
out there.
Jeff Girard:
I get Sidetracked all the time.
Caleb Lawson:
know, I’m directing.
Jeff Girard:
Yeah, keep me on track. So at this conference, at this meeting, I saw that there was a lot of this technically incorrect information that was taken at face value by folks who were very well-meaning but didn’t quite have the technical background to fully understand what was going on. Because you can’t just look at how something works and immediately divine. all the nuances of what’s going on. And that’s human nature, that’s perfectly understandable. So I thought, I got started making my own things and then I had people asking me, one or two here and there, hey, I wanna do what you’re doing, but I wanna do it with the level of success you have, where you can make, I have made very large slabs, relatively thin, now keeping in mind this was steel reinforced concrete, this was pre-GFRC, so inch and a half thick was like, considered extremely thin. The norm was two inches or three inches or thicker. So that was doing inch and a half thick way back then on something like 10, 12 feet long was really cutting edge. Nowadays it’s nothing, but
Caleb Lawson:
Uh-huh.
Jeff Girard:
back then it was. And so I got started teaching people one-on-one and that’s kind of where I started going, I gotta write all this stuff down. And for any of you who have taken a CCI class and had some of my textbooks, We have now over 400 pages of textbooks written about, how do you template? How do you mount, I was just talking to somebody yesterday, how do you mount an undermount sink? How do you form the sink knockout? How do you install? And these are just best practices that I’ve accumulated over the years. So, as, and the reason why I started teaching, and the reason why I started to really commit to teaching more than fabricating, and there was an overlap, there were a period of years where there was an overlap, was once this book came out, the floodgates of people being aware of this industry just opened up.
Caleb Lawson:
So basically you started writing this stuff down because people were asking you, so you needed to have kind of an operating procedures to give them when you trained them.
Jeff Girard:
in 2001.
Jeff Girard:
Absolutely
Jeff Girard:
right, right.
Caleb Lawson:
And then which book are you referring to that came out? Was that the textbook?
Jeff Girard:
One of the first textbooks, yeah. I mean it really was a single textbook and is now multiple textbooks because there’s so much information that’s been stuffed into it.
Caleb Lawson:
And
Jeff Girard:
But
Caleb Lawson:
so you put out a textbook as The Concrete Countertop Institute
Jeff Girard:
in the beginning it was just…
Jeff Girard:
Yes, yeah. And, well actually no, because it was before CCI was formed. CCI was formed in 2004, and the first document that I wrote was in 2001. And it was an informal document, it’s not published anywhere. But it was something that I wrote down because that’s just how I work. That’s how you convey information in a clearer way, is you write it down and both people have the same copy. It’s the same thing with a contract, we’re only gonna touch on that in a second. So. because more and more people started getting into this industry and their only source of information was this book that was out that had good information but it was incomplete. And some of the information was perhaps not necessarily as helpful to everybody as possible. And granted, there are reasons for that. That had nothing to do with the author, but more to do with the publisher. I wanted to really start showing people that, hey, there’s a better way of doing things. So it was partially self-preservation. So
Caleb Lawson:
You wanted the industry to keep going. Because it’s a baby, I mean…
Jeff Girard:
I wanted the industry to keep going
Jeff Girard:
because way back then, we’ll call it less than 100 people. I’m just making these numbers up, but to give you a sense of scale. There was less than 100 people doing this. And public information out there was freaking ridiculous. largely negative. So the reputation was concrete countertops are high maintenance, they stain, they crack, they’re heavy, all those things and they’re still being thrown around. You’ll still find that stuff today.
Caleb Lawson:
I deal with that all the time. I know a lot of you other artisans do too.
Jeff Girard:
Absolutely. You’re facing the same struggles that I faced 24 years ago, and it’s still being regurgitated over and over again. And part of that is due to really poor craftsmanship, really unprofessional contractors who do poor quality work, or people who just troll the internet, scrape up any kind of information they get, and then present that. like they’re going to write an article and so they don’t know anything about this. So they go do a Google search and find all this information and a lot of it is old and a lot of it’s outdated and a lot of it’s negative. So that gets regurgitated. So to combat that, I wanted to start teaching people how to do it well. And there’s, I’ve always said this, there’s no one right way to do things. There’s no,
Caleb Lawson:
There’s a bunch of different ways to skin the cat, right?
Jeff Girard:
There’s no “Jeff Girard” way. The concrete way, like if you’re making concrete, how does concrete, what are the rules of concrete? Why is water cement ratio important? Why is mixed proportion correct? Why is reinforcing put in a certain location? These are rules that are governed by physics and chemistry, not by personal opinion or a particular fashion taste.
Caleb Lawson:
Well, I
Jeff Girard:
I’m
Caleb Lawson:
mean,
Jeff Girard:
just.
Caleb Lawson:
the reality is the facts of physics don’t care about how you feel about them, you know?
Jeff Girard:
Correct, right. What I want, what I like, what my opinion is,
Caleb Lawson:
how
Jeff Girard:
is
Caleb Lawson:
it
Jeff Girard:
irrelevant.
Caleb Lawson:
feels,
Jeff Girard:
Just
Caleb Lawson:
you
Jeff Girard:
like.
Caleb Lawson:
know, it’s like how it feels when I pour it is irrelevant
Jeff Girard:
Right.
Caleb Lawson:
to, I mean, it’s my personal
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
preference,
Jeff Girard:
Just like
Caleb Lawson:
but it’s irrelevant
Jeff Girard:
if
Caleb Lawson:
to
Jeff Girard:
I was telling
Caleb Lawson:
the customer.
Jeff Girard:
you when I sold concrete to a customer, I have to do what is best for them, not what is best for what I like. Because I’m not paying for it, it’s their product.
Caleb Lawson:
So at the
Jeff Girard:
And
Caleb Lawson:
time,
Jeff Girard:
so…
Caleb Lawson:
you were then, you started teaching people,
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
but also
Jeff Girard:
And
Caleb Lawson:
you
Jeff Girard:
this
Caleb Lawson:
had
Jeff Girard:
was
Caleb Lawson:
a
Jeff Girard:
slow.
Caleb Lawson:
production studio.
Jeff Girard:
I had a production studio, I had a big 7,000 square foot facility. We routinely juggled, I don’t know, eight to 15 projects at the same time. That’s a lot, you know, doing a lot of work. And then
Caleb Lawson:
Then were you
Jeff Girard:
teaching.
Caleb Lawson:
teaching at that facility as well, so you had to stop
Jeff Girard:
Yeah,
Caleb Lawson:
your production?
Jeff Girard:
yeah. How to stop production. When you set up a shop, and for everybody who’s set up a shop, you know. shop space is very precious. And if you have lots of projects in place, you have to clear them out to make room for a class. And that’s expensive, right? That’s very disruptive to a business. And to do this for years, you know, not a lot of years, but several years, was very taxing. And I found that the more I taught, the more I felt this was really my calling. Like my role… is best suited to help people. And I can reach more people. by teaching rather than producing. So the reason why I started producing was I wanted to demonstrate that, hey, you could make really cool stuff that really performed well, that didn’t crack, that didn’t stain.
Caleb Lawson:
that works.
Jeff Girard:
And I did that, that works. I did that by producing, right? So I was trying to show by example. And that only gets you so far because I’m only one person
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
and I only have a small shop. And although I was doing a lot of work outside of North Carolina. I mean, I did work all over the country and even in Puerto Rico, but there’s only so much one person can do.
Caleb Lawson:
Uh-huh.
Jeff Girard:
And when you have a book that’s in, like, every Barnes and Noble and is, you know, is in a lot of people’s hands, and I’m not blaming this book, I’m just saying it spurred awareness and then people started doing things on their own, taking inspiration from other sources, you get a lot of people doing it. poorly
Caleb Lawson:
And so
Jeff Girard:
and
Caleb Lawson:
just to clarify
Jeff Girard:
oh.
Caleb Lawson:
because I know you’re not naming the book on purpose and I’m not going to make you but the book was something that was out external to you teaching and then you had this textbook that wasn’t published. It was just a textbook that you were giving to private clients. Correct.
Jeff Girard:
Right, right.
Caleb Lawson:
And.
Jeff Girard:
Yeah. My book has never been publicly published. It’s only available to students, my students. And, you know, at the time, pre-CCI didn’t really have students. It was just somebody who’s like, hey, I want to pay you to teach me one-on-one. And that’s kind of how it started.
Caleb Lawson:
And so you’re doing this, you’re doing this in your studio, which is, I mean, I stop production to do classes, so I very much understand that kind of conundrum, because I, for me, I love producing custom work. That’s one of the things that I feel called to, but I also simultaneously feel very called to be a part of the Concrete Countertop Institute and teaching with you. So I’m juggling that at the moment, so I very much understand that.
Caleb Lawson:
So what, so you did that for a couple of years, it’s growing, what made you decide to actually say I’m done with production? And then kind of an aside question that if you could, how did you do that? Like how did you, how did you actually run through and run out of the projects? I mean, you know, how did you
Jeff Girard:
Believe
Caleb Lawson:
recommend
Jeff Girard:
me, it was.
Caleb Lawson:
other people and things like that? So that’s a, that’s a secondary question.
Jeff Girard:
It was a difficult choice because I still love concrete. I still make concrete. I always have my hands in it. And certainly during class, that’s how I really get to fulfill a lot of the more exotic things where big projects need a lot of people. Well, if you can have a big project that involves a lot of people helping you and learning at the same time, that’s extremely fulfilling and rewarding. So
Caleb Lawson:
It’s like
Jeff Girard:
the
Caleb Lawson:
some of
Jeff Girard:
reason
Caleb Lawson:
my favorite
Jeff Girard:
why…
Caleb Lawson:
pieces we’ve made have been in
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
class because we could pull it off with a lot of people, you know.
Jeff Girard:
The reason why I transitioned was I just couldn’t do both. First of all, they’re two completely different markets. When you are producing, you have relationships with your designers, your architects, your general contractors. And those relationships have to be maintained and nurtured. You can’t just start and stop. You can’t just say, I’m going to put you on pause for a few weeks while I go do stuff. and then come back because if they have a customer and they want you when they want you, you’ve got to be there. That’s part of being a professional. So that was hard and with the huge demand of training, I was doing training every month. I was one of the first, I know I wasn’t the first class, but I was one of the first big classes that I mean I’ve taught thousands of people. I’ve had people from all over the world come through my classroom.
Caleb Lawson:
as evidenced by who came to the May thing.
Jeff Girard:
Absolutely.
Caleb Lawson:
You know, I mean, it
Jeff Girard:
And
Caleb Lawson:
was
Jeff Girard:
we still
Caleb Lawson:
really
Jeff Girard:
get people
Caleb Lawson:
impressive, incredible.
Jeff Girard:
interested from all over the world. And that’s extremely humbling. And I feel very privileged to be considered. And one of the reasons why people consider us is our integrity. They can trust that the information we give. And that’s the key to it, is the reason why people want to learn is they want to be able to do the best job they can.
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, well, and I want to elaborate on that just a little bit because one thing that I think we really strive for, and correct me if I’m wrong here, but to my sense and something that I want when we train people is, so, and I’ve made this analogy a lot, and you know, I carry a brand of phone that you don’t carry and it doesn’t really matter, but my point behind it is they’re like… You could say this about certain car brands. You could say this about Apple versus Android. You could say this about whatever. But there are, for instance, my iPhone, I’ve said the brand, whatever, is always going to do exactly what they say it will do, nothing more, nothing less. And I think that, honestly, is why I have it. There are others out there who… far prefer the ability to do exactly what they want with a device or with the car. So, I mean, there’s car technology where there’s heavily, you know, heavily modified vehicles and things like that may not fulfill that set of criterion. My personal desire for my phone and my car is that they do exactly what they say they’re going to do when they say they’re going to do it. No more, no less. And that, I think, you know, rather than, you know, dive into new techniques and we’re going to explore those for ourselves before we teach them but we’re going to dive into new techniques and we’re going to stay up with the times of what’s going on in the industry but as far as what we’re teaching, we’re teaching principles, we’re teaching cornerstone values and so we want our training to be exactly what we say it’s going to be. And
Jeff Girard:
Right.
Caleb Lawson:
that is that. So we’re obviously, I mean, Jeff, you say you still make concrete, and I’m firsthand witness to this, you make concrete all the time. And you’re always experimenting with what can be in different mix designs so that you can be on top of the information. And that’s part of the mission of CCI. We have to stay on top of
Jeff Girard:
Right.
Caleb Lawson:
the information so that we can be teaching relevant and current topics. topics.
Jeff Girard:
And not everything that we do, not everything that I do, is necessarily public. in large part because it’s not terribly exciting. Doing testing, like I’ve spent the last, and I’m still doing it, last year doing testing. That’s tedious, it’s exhausting. I mean, we’ve shared a couple little snippets here and there over the past many months. But I want to, for me to learn, not
Caleb Lawson:
See you.
Jeff Girard:
only do I do research about topics… from technical journals and articles
Caleb Lawson:
See you.
Jeff Girard:
from all over the world. But I then distill that information, test it, and then look at the results and go, okay, is this, am I interpreting this right? Am I learning, is this something that’s going to be useful not just to me but to everybody else? So that’s
Caleb Lawson:
Well, and it’s
Jeff Girard:
part
Caleb Lawson:
not
Jeff Girard:
of what
Caleb Lawson:
just
Jeff Girard:
I
Caleb Lawson:
confirmation bias
Jeff Girard:
do.
Caleb Lawson:
either. You’re looking for things to disprove the thoughts that you have.
Jeff Girard:
Right,
Caleb Lawson:
As am I. I mean.
Jeff Girard:
yeah, that’s science, right? I have a hypothesis, prove me wrong, and if I’m wrong, I’m gonna change my mind. So getting back to the whole transitional thing, when we decided to get out of fabrication and stop fabricating as a business, so we closed down the fabrication business and dedicated ourselves to CCI, the training business. We had to have a hard conversation with our customers, our designers, and we had a handful who were quite disappointed. Unfortunately, at the time, I didn’t have any local people that I could hand things off to. Like, I didn’t have anybody that I trained locally at the time that could take over. I did later on, but at the time, there was a hole,
Caleb Lawson:
Uh-huh.
Jeff Girard:
so to speak. So that was a hard decision to make, because here we have a relationship with these people who are, you know, they’re relying on us. We become almost a partner because we’re helping them with their business just
Caleb Lawson:
Right.
Jeff Girard:
as they are helping us with ours. And that was a difficult business decision to make, but it’s one that I’m frankly happy I made, because I’m much more satisfied doing this than what I was doing. Granted, I love making concrete, but my true calling is as an educator, not as somebody who makes, not as a creator. And that’s not true for everybody. I mean, your calling to create something is strong. And for me, the creation aspect of it is not just being satisfied making something for a customer. For me, the creation is… new people, new creators, right? Your success brings me satisfaction. And that’s my motivation, is to look at all the people who have come to me, who have trusted in me, and who have taken my information, and certainly information they get elsewhere. And I encourage that too. And I look at their success, and I get great satisfaction. And that’s why I do what I do.
Caleb Lawson:
Well, and one thing too that I would like to kind of impress upon the listeners is like, we talked about the scientific method, we talked about that science, right? It’s testing your hypotheses. And
Jeff Girard:
And hacking
Caleb Lawson:
that’s something
Jeff Girard:
it up.
Caleb Lawson:
that we encourage. It’s like, yeah,
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
we make products. I mean, we’re not going to not say that and not try to sell them. But at the same time, when somebody’s asking, whether it’s on a Facebook forum or whatever, if somebody’s asking me, what sealer do I use, or what mix design do I use, or what methods do I use, I’m going to tell you. But then my backup phrase is, here’s what I do. But you should take the breadth of what people are telling you. it, if it’s sealer or if it’s a mix design, buy five or six of them and play with them and see what you think. And I think that’s the bones too of when we talk a lot about, when we talk in class about materials, of course we’re going to use the products we sell, but that’s not to say that’s the only thing out there. I mean we do use, we use Rapid Set as well in class. And so it’s like we’re going to give you multiple options and then we want you as the to then decide what works best for you. And then ideally we want you to fall back on us for help in the future if you need to troubleshoot something or if you need to, I mean that’s part of the commitment that we’ve made as CCI is we’re gonna be available to you in the future once you take a course.
Jeff Girard:
So, in kind of touching on the testing aspect, in 2006, so what was that, 17 years ago,
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
I did a survey. You know, one of the biggest hot topics in this industry still is sealers, right? And we’re not going to touch, you know, get into that right now. But in 2006, I wanted to look at, all right, what are all the different sealers that are on the market? And there’s a lot of claims like anybody can say anything about something What do they actually do? And so I gathered as many sealers as possible, from straight densifiers to wax to acrylics to epoxies to polyaspartics to everything, everything I could get my hands on. And I tested it. And if you wanna know how I tested it, I have an article on the CCI website of how to test your sealers. And so I picked, to keep things manageable, right? picks 14 different common things. And they’re by no means exhaustive, but they do represent a large number of common things that kitchen
Caleb Lawson:
in kitchens
Jeff Girard:
countertops
Caleb Lawson:
and things
Jeff Girard:
get
Caleb Lawson:
like
Jeff Girard:
exposed,
Caleb Lawson:
that.
Jeff Girard:
like coffee and mustard and lemon juice and red wine and that sort of thing, and oil. And then I looked at, all right, let’s not just put it on for a little while, let’s look at different times. So 15 minutes of exposure, one hour, eight hours, 24 hours. So it was kind of a very regimented, repeatable process. something that’s simple. I mean… Most people are vaguely aware of what an ASTM test is. But these are very, very rigorous tests that are meant to be, whether you’re testing flexural strength or compressive strength or things like that, there’s a process, there’s a method, the type of machinery, how fast or how slow is it loaded, how is it measured, how do you analyze the data, so that test can be performed by anybody, anywhere, at any time. and have the results be comparable to the results from somebody else. And I think that’s really important because if you do just two random tests that two different people make up on their own and they have no relevance to each other, then you’re comparing apples to zebras.
Caleb Lawson:
Right, so to dumb that down a little bit, like every time you, Jeff Gerard, test a sealer, so let’s get specific with it, you’re going to test it this way. It’s
Jeff Girard:
Yes.
Caleb Lawson:
always going, and one thing that, you know, it’s like if you’re going to test a sealer, buy the sealer, read the instructions, do the
Jeff Girard:
Follow
Caleb Lawson:
sealer
Jeff Girard:
me.
Caleb Lawson:
exactly the way it is recommended. So if there’s a new set of instructions. that’s, you know, we’ve changed the priming method or whatever. Do that. Follow the exact, you know, to the letter of the law current instruction pattern for this thing. And then figure out how long it takes to fully cure. So, you know, a lot of polyurethanes, for instance, are like seven days. So, at 75 degrees. So,
Jeff Girard:
I usually give it two weeks. Two weeks.
Caleb Lawson:
yeah. So make sure it’s fully cured. Minimum. and then do the test in the prescribed way, the same way every single time. So it’s like, well I can’t say I can’t like buy two different sealers and test one with mustard and one with red wine and say well one stained and the other one didn’t. Mustard’s a,
Jeff Girard:
Yeah, or
Caleb Lawson:
you know.
Jeff Girard:
one sealer I sealed last year, one sample I sealed last year with
Caleb Lawson:
The one
Jeff Girard:
sealer
Caleb Lawson:
I sealed yesterday.
Jeff Girard:
A, the one I sealed yesterday and the one I sealed yesterday, oh, it stains. Well, of course it
Caleb Lawson:
Duh.
Jeff Girard:
stains, it’s not
Caleb Lawson:
You
Jeff Girard:
cured.
Caleb Lawson:
know.
Jeff Girard:
So that’s just,
Caleb Lawson:
So do-
Jeff Girard:
we’re kind
Caleb Lawson:
Itch.
Jeff Girard:
of diving deep into the weeds here, but this comes back to integrity, right? So if I’m… If I’m showing, if I’m embracing integrity, I’m not going to make a claim against or for a sealer that is tested improperly or make comparisons that are not on
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
an equal level.
Caleb Lawson:
I recently saw somebody in the industry do a really in-depth sealer test with a lot of different sealers. And, I mean, they did it the right way, you know. There was a very clear method. There’s documentation to support it. And I think that is what, you know, it’s like I don’t need to know what’s in the sealer or in the whatever. I just want to know that it’s being tested properly and that
Jeff Girard:
Does
Caleb Lawson:
I
Jeff Girard:
it
Caleb Lawson:
can
Jeff Girard:
work?
Caleb Lawson:
see the test data. Does it work? And yeah, I mean, you know, what
Jeff Girard:
Does
Caleb Lawson:
does
Jeff Girard:
it
Caleb Lawson:
work mean?
Jeff Girard:
do what the manufacturer claims, and does it do what I want it to do for my customers?
Caleb Lawson:
Right,
Jeff Girard:
And if it was…
Caleb Lawson:
so when I say or when we say, does it work, what we mean is does it do what it says it’s gonna do?
Jeff Girard:
Yeah, every time, every time,
Caleb Lawson:
Reliably.
Jeff Girard:
every time, reliably.
Caleb Lawson:
Not,
Jeff Girard:
So.
Caleb Lawson:
you know, like if, yeah, and so that comes back to certainly what we as artisans do for our clients. We’re going to promise something. You know, I’m going to deliver X product. It’s going to do X and I’m going to deliver it in X time frame.
Jeff Girard:
We’ve had a podcast in the past where we talked about setting expectations.
Caleb Lawson:
and the
Jeff Girard:
And
Caleb Lawson:
contract
Jeff Girard:
that’s part
Caleb Lawson:
is part
Jeff Girard:
of,
Caleb Lawson:
of that.
Jeff Girard:
and the contract is part of that. And, and being a professional and having integrity, uh, means a customer is going to come to me. They can trust me. I’m going to do what I say I’m going to do. The contract is a legal document that’s going to hold me to that. And if I make a sample for the customer. or they pick a sample off my wall, the product that I’m going to make is going to be represented by that sample within the
Caleb Lawson:
Within
Jeff Girard:
variation
Caleb Lawson:
a reasonable,
Jeff Girard:
of the rules
Caleb Lawson:
yeah.
Jeff Girard:
that are outlined in the contract and through the expectations I set. So if they want blue and I give them pink, I’m not doing my job, I’m not doing what I said I’m going to do. And that’s like the easiest way. to show your customers that you have integrity is you demonstrate, hey, I got a nice contract here. It’s protecting both of us.
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
I
Caleb Lawson:
and I-
Jeff Girard:
have examples of my work that show the level of quality that I do. My portfolio shows that I can handle the scope of projects that you want me to do, or perhaps are more challenging than what they want me to do, and that really builds confidence in them. And so having those very basic elements are ways you build trust and establish integrity. When you’re dealing with other professionals, architects or designers, you do what you say you do. You never go behind their back. You are their partner, so you’ve got their back. You’re not going to throw them under the bus and say, well, you know, you’re going to be That’s just how concrete is or wave your hands or make excuses to protect yourself at their expense because that’s a quick way to go out of business, right?
Caleb Lawson:
So, basically, and I’m going to go back in time a little bit, so a contract as I’m kind of defining it is the outward sign of the promises you’re making. So, you know, a lot of people are like, well, I’d rather just, you know, shake your hand and that be enough. And I’m like, yeah, that would be nice, right? But the reality is, especially in this day and age where lawsuits run wild. you know, we are using kind of covenantal language. There’s this concept of a covenant. And the language is still used a lot in the law, but what that was is this is a promise that’s backed up by an action. So in olden times, there would be a promise that was made, and then there would be some sort of sign that was done, for instance, in like ancient, Near East there would be a covenant made and then they would sacrifice an animal and they would cut it
Jeff Girard:
So
Caleb Lawson:
from
Jeff Girard:
areas of map walkings or something like
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
that. Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
they would cut it from nose to butt basically in like long ways, right and split it and then walk through it and the language there meant if I don’t fulfill this promise then may this be done to me and You know to me that is the bones of a contract right? It’s like here’s the stipulations And here’s what happens if these stipulations aren’t fulfilled on either side.
Jeff Girard:
Right.
Caleb Lawson:
And sorry for the graphic nature of that, but
Caleb Lawson:
that’s the reality is we’re trying to protect ourselves certainly, but our clients too. There needs to be set expectations. We had a whole podcast about setting expectations. I don’t remember what number it was, but go back and listen to it because we did a lot of talking about it. And so we wanted to just kind of briefly. on the contract and why we have it as a sign of integrity because that’s what it is. It’s a…
Jeff Girard:
you’ve got a story that you’re
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
currently dealing with that touches on this.
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, yeah. So, 2000, it was either late 18 or early 19, I got contacted by somebody I’d worked with before, but they were, I had worked with them as a superintendent of a larger general contractor in the commercial space, and they were contacting me as, he was like doing a side project as the general contractor for a homeowner. Large outdoor kitchen, really elaborate and, you know. I mean like epoxy rivers and all sorts of crazy stuff. And I went out and I did some measurements and I gave them a quote. And it took me a while to quote it because epoxy rivers and how we were doing everything was very, very expensive. I think the job was like 80 grand and it was like an outdoor kitchen and a set of steps. So it was really, you know, and they just agreed to it, right? Now, mind you, I never met the homeowner. I just was going through the contractor, as a lot of us do. And we had a contract and all this stuff, and he gave me a deposit, and I made a finished sample. I sent it to him, and I’m like, hey, what do you think? And I write crickets.
Jeff Girard:
Yeah, so that contract was signed and accepted.
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah, and then I got ghosted, right? And now something that I encourage everybody to do is don’t offer refunds and make that clear to contract. So I get ghosted and I’m like, I have my office manager at the time, Ronnie, who is amazing, was reaching out monthly to this guy. And we… never heard back and never heard back and never heard back. And after a couple of months, the reach outs became further apart. So we’re like, well, I guess you’ll contact us if you want to. It’s kind of weird. And so we got two years out and we had been reaching out. on an interval. It wasn’t monthly at that point, but it was on an interval. We had continued to reach out and finally we stopped after I think the year two mark. So 2020-ish. So this was like late 2018. We probably stopped reaching out late 2020. And then I got a call in middle of 2021. Hey, I’m kind of handling this sort of estate for this couple affairs of the project and can you get us a statement? Okay. So I sent them a statement of what we had bid and what they had paid and made it very clear, hey, I’m still willing to do the job. And crickets yet again, and I got a call two weeks ago. So this is 2023, this was 2018, so long
Jeff Girard:
five
Caleb Lawson:
time
Jeff Girard:
years.
Caleb Lawson:
ago, almost five years. And from an attorney. I got an attorney letter. It was like a demand letter for all the money back or get sued. And I called the attorney, you know, personally, and I said, listen, here’s what happened from my perspective. We have a contract stating that we don’t, you know, issue refunds. I am willing to do the job despite it being five years later, you know, at that price because we had a contract on it. So, you know, relay that to the homeowner and let me know what she says. Turns out she wants the work. So we’re now in the process of working out how that’s gonna work out. But I think that’s the… Not only is that a story, because it turns out that they are in a major lawsuit with this general contractor who, I mean, he was doing a cost plus and he bought a brand new F-150 on their dime, which is not okay. And so, I mean, thank God that they were willing to speak with me and I was willing to, because it’s like, I hate that this happened to you and I want to do everything I can to remedy the situation, at least as far as I can do it. And so, anyway, all that to say, you know, if you sign a contract, which I did, you know, it was my contract, but I, you know, that you have to be willing to follow through with what you said you were going to do even years later and, you know, conversely, this guy should be sued for everything he’s worth as a result of really, you know, screwing these people over as badly as he did and it’s just not okay. So…
Jeff Girard:
I had a similar situation happen early 2000s. I won’t go into many of the details, but the long and the story short is I did a counter top job for this contractor that I had worked for in the past, worked for on a prior job, and he just chose not to pay me. Now it wasn’t a whole lot of money, it wasn’t a big, I mean it was a lot for me because I was just starting out, but it wasn’t like $80,000 or anything. that. But this contractor, so he was, he would do this in multiple states and he’d go from state to state. And what he, what he did was this, this was in Charleston, South Carolina. And these are some in two of the very, very historical homes that happen to be private homes. So this is where the, you know, the tour guides stop and talk about the houses.
Caleb Lawson:
down on
Jeff Girard:
That’s
Caleb Lawson:
the battery.
Jeff Girard:
that kind of, not on the better yet. One of them, one of the houses on Rainbow Row. And the other one was one of the three sisters houses. And so this contractor, um, he got hired by one of the owners of this, these very wealthy people who lived in this house and they were renovating the kitchen and they were, they had to stay within a historical, all the historical stuff. And when I went down there to do the first job, which I got paid for, though I was super impressed. Like you weren’t allowed to eat or smoke or drink anything on the job site. You had to go off site. all the floors, which are, you know, we’re talking about a house built in the 1700s, so this is very old. There was multiple layers of protection on everything. There was one guy’s job was to do nothing but vacuum and clean up constantly. So the worksite was pristine. It was the most organized, clean worksite I’ve ever seen. And the level of craftsmanship on everything was impeccable. The quality of the finishes. quality of the materials was amazing. And his shtick was, he would find these wealthy people who wanted to renovate a house. And we’re talking like, multi-million dollars worth of renovations here.
Caleb Lawson:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Girard:
So this was big ticket. And he would hire all these contractors and he would pay the contractors directly. And he would get photocopies of the checks he was signing the contractors and he would get, take draws from the homeowners. And so the first project he did with them was totally above board. But once he got them hooked, he said, okay, we’re going to do this again for this other house that you’re not living in. And maybe it’s a flip or whatever, but we’re going to do it even bigger. So now the budget gets even bigger and it takes longer. And now they’re more disconnected because they don’t live there. They’re probably not even in state. And what he would do would be he would get money from the homeowner, fill out a check to the contractors, take a photocopy of the check to prove that he paid them, but never paid the contractors. And he would delay payment. So there were like, we try to sue him, but. We were at the tail end of a very, very long line of people who he owed hundreds of thousands of dollars to, and there were lots of people that way, and he would just skip town. The shame of it is, is he did really good work. He was a really good contractor. Everything was super organized. The quality of the work was really good, but he was just a very dishonest person. He had no integrity.
Caleb Lawson:
It’s like why
Jeff Girard:
That’s
Caleb Lawson:
when
Jeff Girard:
the
Caleb Lawson:
you’re
Jeff Girard:
shame.
Caleb Lawson:
that talented?
Jeff Girard:
Right, because that’s a psychosis, right? A dishonest person can’t help themselves. They have to manipulate and steal and lie and cheat, because that’s in their nature. They can’t help themselves, and everybody becomes a victim because they present a facade of trustworthiness, of integrity. But once you peel back that and see the truth behind it… They’re crooks, they’re
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
liars, they’re cheats. And that’s certainly something that I have a visceral reaction against. I think
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
that’s just despicable.
Caleb Lawson:
it is.
Jeff Girard:
But that happened and it’s probably gonna happen unfortunately to everybody. So this discussion about integrity is here’s a way that you can help your customers feel comfortable with working with you.
Caleb Lawson:
Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And then kind of a semi wrap up question, I think, to you. So we’ve talked a lot about how our audience as artisans and makers, like how they ought to and how certainly I practice this in my own business. But how do we as CCI, as the What does that mean to you, Jeff? And I think you’ve answered that for the most part, what that means to you, but how do you see us practicing that kind of thing, practicing integrity and practicing being above board honesty in our training?
Jeff Girard:
Definitely by using methods and techniques, not just using, but teaching, instructing, educating, sharing the information that is not just opinion-based or based on some personal agenda or anything like that. I want you guys to succeed. And although I don’t personally adopt new technology immediately. I have to be very careful about that because cutting edge technology means you’re going to bleed sometimes. And that’s great if you want to play around with things and you’re just dinking and dunking and you can afford to do that. But all of you who run businesses know you can’t afford to have a product or a process or a method that you can’t trust. You can’t count on. because your business depends on it. Your customers depend on you. And having integrity means, for me, and for CCI, is the information we give is as accurate and as honest and as trustworthy as we can make it. And we back it up by, hey, if I say, these are the rules of concrete, I can show you the documentation and point you to, hey, here’s this article or here’s this website. that corroborates it. So
Caleb Lawson:
Well, and some might say like, oh well,
Jeff Girard:
I’m not saying people just take my word for it or
Caleb Lawson:
No.
Jeff Girard:
take it on faith or believe me because I am who I am and then I get offended because you question me. No, I’m going to back it up
Caleb Lawson:
I’ve questioned
Jeff Girard:
and
Caleb Lawson:
you
Jeff Girard:
that’s what
Caleb Lawson:
and you
Jeff Girard:
never
Caleb Lawson:
know.
Jeff Girard:
these things are for, right?
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
You question
Caleb Lawson:
that’s
Jeff Girard:
me all the time.
Caleb Lawson:
true. It’s in my nature, right? Like, it’s in my nature to question and look it up for myself. You know, a lot of times I wanna just, it’s not that I don’t trust somebody, it’s that I want to know. For myself, you know, it’s like whether it’s a history thing or a theological thing or a concrete thing Like I want to do the deep dive myself You know, maybe that means I think too highly of myself in my brain or whatever and it’s possible But you know, really I want to understand the bones of things, you know I want to understand how things are supposed to work how they you know It’s like that’s why I got into working on cars. I want to know what goes on the inside of the engine I want
Jeff Girard:
Right.
Caleb Lawson:
to know what you know and valve timing and how all that works. Like I want to really just understand it at a visceral level. And so I ask
Jeff Girard:
It’s
Caleb Lawson:
questions.
Jeff Girard:
our obligation as instructors, as trusted authorities, we have an obligation to be truthful, to find out the best information. And sometimes that information isn’t necessarily
Caleb Lawson:
Convenient.
Jeff Girard:
the most popular or convenient, but it’s information that you can rely on. And
Caleb Lawson:
But again,
Jeff Girard:
that’s part of
Caleb Lawson:
like
Jeff Girard:
our
Caleb Lawson:
I said
Jeff Girard:
job.
Caleb Lawson:
earlier, facts don’t care about feelings. It’s like that things are true because they’re true, not because you feel good about them. And, you know, so maybe we don’t adopt the newest bleeding edge techniques right up front, right? But… the things we do adopt we know work. I mean, it’s like you gave your sealer to me, Omega, to test, what was it, a year, a year and a half before it went on the market. And… I thoroughly tested it myself for several months before I put it on a client project. So now I can say with happiness that I’ve been using that sealer for a year and a half longer than anybody else and I’ve never had a callback. And that’s all well and good, but the point of that is test it. Whether it’s a mix or a material or a sealer or a method or a tool, test it. on not a client project, because that’s how you’re gonna understand what’s gonna work and what doesn’t. So that’s why I’m super hesitant to test anything on a client project. I started using alpha products from CCI, again, before they went on the market, but I tested them for a long time before I actually put them in a client project.
Jeff Girard:
And you better believe that I tested
Caleb Lawson:
Well, you had
Jeff Girard:
those
Caleb Lawson:
been testing them
Jeff Girard:
longer
Caleb Lawson:
for,
Jeff Girard:
beforehand.
Caleb Lawson:
whew, I’ve seen the tests. So
Jeff Girard:
So,
Caleb Lawson:
all of that to
Jeff Girard:
yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
say, you know, I mean, this is a long-winded sort of exposition on integrity and how we practice it, but also how we hope that others in our industry are gonna practice it as well.
Jeff Girard:
And as a bigger picture, right, we’re not just individual, isolated people. We’re community. And that’s CCI got started to teach people all over the world, how to do this and be successful at it. And a few years after we formed CCI, we, we created, Lane and I created the very first. true industry conference, the concrete countertop industry conference. We ran that for three years. And it was a whole, you know, we had speakers, we had exhibitors. It was in a convention center. We did it in Raleigh, we did it in Charlotte, we did it in Sacramento, California. And The purpose of that was to really start to bring people together physically, because at the time, social media was still new. And nobody really talked to each other. There were a couple of forums, but forums, as you know, there’s A, a ton of them, and B, they can really start to go downhill and get very petty and clicky, and it feels like you’re in middle school playground again.
Caleb Lawson:
Hmm.
Jeff Girard:
With some of the the immature things that people attack each other with. And that’s kind of at the opposite end of where CCI operates. Like we wanna think that we’re above that pettiness to where, look, we’re professionals. And what does being a professional mean? It means you teach people, you treat people with respect and you embrace integrity. So these conferences are where people started to come together. And it was a beginning of a community, a physical community. And, you know, with the prevalence of Instagram and, and all these other social media platforms where people get on forums, they talk to each other in these groups or whatever you want to call them, right. And then viewing people through blogs like this, there’s lots of blogs out there. This is where people connect with each other. They, they, they learn and they take inspiration from each other. But. One thing that is important to know with any community, there are people who want to work together.
Caleb Lawson:
Hmm.
Jeff Girard:
There’s always a few who want to be above that and separate themselves and create division. And you’ve got to be careful about that because
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
folks who want to create division are in it for themselves, not for anybody else.
Caleb Lawson:
Yep. Yeah,
Jeff Girard:
And
Caleb Lawson:
absolutely.
Jeff Girard:
that is completely outside and against everything. that CCI has ever been and will ever be is we denounce and condemn that sort of behavior. So that’s our position on things is you can trust us because we have the integrity to be trustworthy.
Caleb Lawson:
Well, I’m not, you know that. Going back to you can trust me because you can trust me. It’s like no you can trust us because there’s a record of it
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
You know and we’re gonna keep acting on that record. We’re gonna keep being trustworthy and And to that end, you know, I think we’re gonna start inviting some guests on so You know, I’m hoping to have some guests from other companies that sell products too because we really want to foster a community that can lean on each other and grow together.
Jeff Girard:
Absolutely, absolutely. So let us know what your thoughts are on this. Give us some feedback. Talk to us, we wanna
Caleb Lawson:
Yeah.
Jeff Girard:
hear from you guys.
Caleb Lawson:
We want to hear from you. This one, you know, because like I said, we changed platforms, so we should be on Spotify here shortly. Apple podcasts, I think I’ve got I’m working on signing up for all of that. I’ve got it ready to upload to Spotify. Will definitely be on YouTube, certainly the website. So tune in and I’ll figure out how to announce this further. But yes, super excited about that. Also, class plug. course five days of intensive learning in the best practices techniques of how to do this successfully as a business coming up August 7th through 11th at my shop here in Canton, North Carolina. So we’re just west of Asheville. It is a beautiful sunny day, blue skies, green mountains, great
Jeff Girard:
Awesome.
Caleb Lawson:
beer scene. the perfect time to be in the mountains. So come join us for that. You’ll get incredible training. incredible community. We go out to dinner a couple of times and really just get to know each other in addition to the training and you’ll be in this stunning area, Blue Ridge Parkway, Mountains to Sea, Appalachian Trail, all of that fun stuff that you can, so come and stay a little longer. And so that’s something that’s super exciting. And then in the winter we’re also offering ultimate December, I believe, 4th through 8th. So those links will
Jeff Girard:
supply.
Caleb Lawson:
be in day GFRC class coming up November 9th and 10th. So if you want
Jeff Girard:
Yeah.
Caleb Lawson:
a shorter introduction to the craft, join us for that. So a lot
Jeff Girard:
All
Caleb Lawson:
coming
Jeff Girard:
right.
Caleb Lawson:
up, a lot to prepare for, a lot to get excited about and really, really appreciate you all joining us on this episode. So we’ll see you next week.
Jeff Girard:
Take care,
Caleb Lawson:
See
Jeff Girard:
see
Caleb Lawson:
ya.
Jeff Girard:
you next time.